Paul Ford: Hi, I’m Paul Ford.

Rich Ziade: And I’m Rich Ziade.

Paul: This is The Aboard podcast, the podcast about how AI is changing the world of software. Rich, we have a listener question from Christopher.

Rich: Okay…

Paul: So—

Rich: Hello, Christopher. Thank you for listening.

Paul: We’ll play a theme song and we’ll answer it.

Rich: All right.

[intro music]

Paul: Christopher had a good question. He wrote us, and he said, “Listen, you guys keep saying you’re not vibe coding.”

Rich: Yes.

Paul: You’re not vibe coding. You’re not vibe coding. You’re not vibe coding. You’re not vibe coding. Great. Okay, I got it. I heard you. I heard you!

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: But maybe you could explain what the hell you mean by that.

Rich: Sure. Thanks for the question, Christopher.

Paul: He didn’t address it in anywhere that tone. It was very polite and friendly.

Rich: Great. Well, thanks for listening. Vibe coding lets you type in a box and then it starts making software immediately.

Paul: Focus on the second word: Coding.

Rich: It writes code that then runs as software.

Paul: And it does planning, it makes documents.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: It does all kinds of stuff as a process, like Claude Code. But it’s about getting you to that artifact as quickly as possible.

Rich: Correct. And it works for certain things. Just as I can go to Home Depot, buy some wooden nails, and make a shed, I can make little things with vibe coding. And the reason for that is software is quite complex, and it becomes exponentially more complex if it’s a bigger thing. When you vibe code and you want to make a tool that converts JPEGs into PNG files or whatever, it can pretty much do it. We don’t do that. And the reason we don’t do it is we build much more complex software with Aboard. It’s designed for building a wing to the house. You’re not just going to go to Home Depot, grab a bunch of stuff, come back home and say, “Honey, we’re going to have an extra bedroom before you know it.” It doesn’t work.

Paul: Before you go any deeper on that metaphor, let me take a swing.

Rich: I’m enjoying it.

Paul: I know. Let me take a swing. So, okay, what does that mean? So vibe coding is when you type in the box, you get some code, it edits the code, and you go around and around. A tool like Replit will debug your code for hours.

Rich: Hours! And charge you for it.

Paul: So it’s very much about cutting engineering cycles out of the loop so you can get to your thing.

Rich: Correct.

Paul: Our use of AI is different. We create a little conversation with you. You can use a demo prototype version of this on the website.

Rich: Yep.

Paul: And we have a conversation in which we gather your requirements. We use AI to sort of extrapolate a little bit about what your business is and how it might operate.

Rich: Let’s go back to my analogy. Do you need a blueprint for a shed?

Paul: Yes, actually, the way I build things. But no—

Rich: Ideally, it’s nice to have one, but you don’t need one.

Paul: Someone who has, like, roughly built a shed before—

Rich: A skilled carpenter.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Yeah. You do need a blueprint for a bedroom with a bathroom and pipes and electricity.

Paul: Yes.

Rich: What we do is we don’t rush to building the thing. We draft a blueprint, and the conversation you have with Aboard for the first five minutes or so are pretty much filling in a lot of the details that go into a blueprint. And that is very different than what typical vibe coding tools do, which they love to go to build as quickly as possible and then they fix as best they can.

Paul: So it’s a matter of perspective. We do a lot of the same things, except we actually keep—the code is a little bit sacred. When we assemble the application, we assemble—

Rich: It’s later.

Paul: Yeah, we assemble it out of code that we vetted and prepared.

Rich: Correct.

Paul: As opposed to assembling it right there in real time.

Rich: Correct.

Paul: So it’s a little bit, you know, it’s a little bit more like you’re ordering off the menu and then they go cook it, as opposed to the fast food of vibe coding.

Rich: Yes. And what you’re seeing, by the way, amongst the vibe coding products is something called spec-driven development, or essentially, let’s write something first before we run the code, to essentially mitigate and make more predictable the outcome. We’re much more diligent about that. We won’t even—the spec isn’t a casual step for us. It’s kind of a very, it’s a very intense blueprinting process.

Paul: And I mean, it’s a very good question. But the last bit of the answer is like, what we do—and we’re learning this out in the field—is much more comfortable for organizational…

Rich: Bigger solutions.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: Somebody who is an SVP of something in a big org is like, “This feels familiar to me.”

Rich: Yes.

Paul: “It’s cool that you use the AI to assemble, but now we can introspect and document and understand what’s going on.”

Rich: I mean, last thought, we’re probably overkill if you just need a personal to-do list app. We’re not for that.

Paul: No, I mean, there’s great tools, great tools everywhere. What we are is for an organization that really, really wants to accelerate but doesn’t want a lot of risk. It’s a different story. It’s also a funny one because I think we seem like we’re very accessible, nice people. I think we do.

Rich: I think we are.

Paul: Yes. But you would assume we’d be making a tool that anybody could pick up for $10.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Like, that’s the way we talk.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: But the reality is we’re kind of for big, ugly organizations with big, ugly organizational problems.

Rich: Or beautiful organizations that may want to reach out to us, Paul!

Paul: At aboard.com.

Rich: At aboard.com.

Paul: Go check out—easiest way to do it is to see it. Check it out. Go to aboard.com and try it. Now look.

Rich: Yeah?

Paul: All this aside, remember how a couple weeks ago we were talking about how we’re in an AI bubble?

Rich: I do. Do you remember Mr. Bubble?

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Rich: It was like, I thought it was the funnest cartoon.

Paul: He was great. He got in a tub and it was all bubbles. I had some Mr. Bubble as a little kid.

Rich: It was great.

Paul: Yeah, you don’t—

Rich: It smelled like bubblegum a little bit.

Paul: You don’t really take a lot of tubs as a grown up.

Rich: There’s a song, Mr. Bubble in the Tubble.

Paul: Oh…

Rich: You can check it out on YouTube.

Paul: I gotta say, that is a sad thing. They take tubs away at some point. You’re just not supposed to do that anymore. Unless you have, like, a sports injury, then it’s okay.

Rich: Yeah, my kids take a lot of baths.

Paul: Kids love baths. Because you’re in the bath, you hang out, you got toys. It’s fun.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. If you could just get the iPad in there, it would rule.

Rich: They do.

Paul: Yeah, I know.

Rich: Unfortunately.

Paul: My brother once tried to bring a, like a tube television, like, he leaned it on the edge of the tub. [laughing]

Rich: Mmm. Good judgment.

Paul: And my mom.

Rich: It fell in?

Paul: And my mom walked in—no.

Rich: Oh, Jesus.

Paul: Because he’s still alive. He was forced to write a long essay on electrical safety. [laughter] That was his punishment.

Rich: So, speaking of electrical safety, we concluded last time that we’re pretty much in a bubble.

Paul: Yes.

Rich: Which I think we still are, in a way.

Paul: I gotta tell you, I go back and—after we had that conversation, I do. I do think that, like—

Rich: We’re overheating a bit.

Paul: I mean, the market just can’t only go up, right?

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Because at some point, if the fantasies all come true about how valuable this is?

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: No one will have any jobs or money with which to pay for the products. [laughter] And it’s like, “Oh, how about universal basic income?”

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And I’m like, “That doesn’t really solve the economy that you’re talking about.”

Rich: The country becomes one big compound.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: So I don’t think we’ve unlocked—the trajectory on, there’s a lot of, like, “It’s going to be fiiiine.”

Rich: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: And so there is that. I’m not backing up from that. Let me take a step back. I’m going to go, like, two steps back. My midlife crisis hobby is learning piano and fooling around with synthesizers.

Rich: I know about this.

Paul: Normal dad stuff. Right? And take my lesson—so I take my piano lessons on Tuesday mornings. And then at night I kind of go beep-boop around and I practice my scales and I practice my Bach pieces and so on. And so recently I saw on Craigslist, because I like to go see what synths are for sale in the community.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Somebody was like, “Hey, if you want to learn how to build a synthesizer, we’re teaching a class at the School of Visual Arts.”

Rich: Here in New York City.

Paul: Yeah. And I know the School of Visual Arts pretty well.

Rich: All right. This isn’t just playing a synth.

Paul: No, this is—

Rich: You’re gonna build one.

Paul: That’s right. And so I started going to the synth class. It’s six classes of three hours each, so pretty low-commitment.

Rich: It’s an evening thing.

Paul: My kids are a little older, so it’s pretty easy to, like, be like, “Hey, honey, Wednesdays are gonna be shot for six weeks.”

Rich: You’re learning something new.

Paul: Very good for the brain. You go into school mode. And so I’m learning, I got a PCB board. I had to solder buttons on it. And we’re using it, and it control—you plug it in with USB and you—

Rich: Oh, so you’re doing some hardware soldering?

Paul: Absolutely. Never—and I always had, like, a block about soldering. And so it was cool to actually just get taught and be able to be like, “Hey, how’s my soldering?” It’s like, “Well, this one’s okay. This one you screwed up.”

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: It’s just good. Good to learn.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: So I assembled my board. It works pretty well.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: I may go by for the laser training so I can make a case. That’s exciting.

Rich: Whoa!

Paul: Yeah. Anyway, so enough about me. So I’ve got this thing, and it has a microcontroller in it. The microcontroller is called a Teensy. And it runs, it runs in the Arduino ecosystem.

Rich: I’ve heard of it.

Paul: But all you need to know is that I have put a lot of little buttons and sliders. And these are by nature kind of organic. Like, you hit them with your fingers and they make little pulses.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: And they all go into the Teensy, which is a very fast, like, it’s hundreds of megahertz, but it is a little tiny computer.

Rich: It’s a tiny computer.

Paul: And so it doesn’t—

Rich: To control the interactions.

Paul: That’s right. So not a lot of memory. So what the Teensy does is when I do things with my fingers and hit the buttons?

Rich: Mmm hmm?

Paul: It takes those from analog button world into computer world.

Rich: Zeros and ones.

Paul: And then it can turn that into signals that it sends over to a laptop or to a synthesizer or anything that can read the MIDI standard.

Rich: Right.

Paul: And off we go. And so a lot of little—

Rich: MIDI is a 70-year-old digital music standard. All right, you’re having a good time. So you made this sort of physical box that lets you control MIDI. And I guess on your computer you can have sounds come out.

Paul: I could play it on the piano. But here’s the thing, I could also turn it into a sequencer or a drum machine. It’s all sorts of things. It’s a generalized hardware platform.

Rich: Okay. Okay.

Paul: Then you program this stuff in the language C++, which I don’t know. I don’t know C++.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: But we’ve got some stuff to cut and paste and you go into use VIsual Code. So, okay, now—and this is why this has been a weird transformative experience. So I was like, you know, I’m a big nerd. I know I got 16 buttons and 8 knobs and sliders.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: I know that I’m programming this stuff in C++. You know what? But also the code that was provided, I was, like, it could be a little more abstract. So I had Claude rewrite it for me. So I already went in there and I started to tidy stuff up.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: Okay? So that’s normal vibe coding—

Rich: Using AI?

Paul: Using AI. It’s normal vibe coding stuff and it’s very readable. It’s very easy to see, like, oh, okay, that’s how that works in C++. I never did this before before. So that’s a nice vibe-coding experience. And then I was like, you know, what if I wanted to do the drum machine, how would that work? And so I vibe coded a little C++ vibe machine that would run on the Teensy—

Rich: Drum machine?

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Okay, so you’re outside of class curriculum now.

Paul: And I’m also outside of any kind of—it’s two kinds of programming I’ve never done before. Embedded kind of microcontroller type of programming. So one meg—it’s got, like one meg of RAM. It’s real tight.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: So I’m not writing a web app in Python or JavaScript or whatever.

Rich: This is different stuff.

Paul: So real tightly constrained. And C++, which is a language that is harder than a lot of the scripting languages I typically use.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Okay? Not always, but lower-level.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: And it’s going real good. And then I go, you know what, maybe I’ll make a little operating system layer. Because then I start to realize that if you think about it, like, a drum-machine mode, 16 buttons, 8 sliders, or I could go over here and have a chord generator.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And basically I’m like, well, wait a minute, I don’t want to be doing this on C++. I like writing, there’s a little tiny language called Lua. It’s, like, 8K in memory every time you instantiate it. So it fits really nicely on the microcontroller.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: Little scripting language. So I’m like, let’s do it this way. You’re going to load these Lua modules in. You’re going to define how this is going to work. And you’re going to create an interface between C and Lua. I’m going to script my little operating system.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: Now, let’s be clear. A half hour has gone by.

Rich: Right.

Paul: Then I’m done, I go for a little walk, and I start to think about data models, and I start to think about different ways to look at this. I did, like, five things I’ve never done before. I did them without thinking about them, having—knowing about them. Soldering was one that was physical, right? But the brain stuff, the like, hey, I’m going to build an operating system, kind of in quotes, but for this one particular piece of hardware, I’m going to couple it tightly to the hardware that I just made?

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: On the PCB board provided by my very nice teacher. And then I’m going to build a way to quickly load multiple modules and switch between them on the hardware so that I can create, like, a whole groovebox experience to control MIDI synths on my laptop. I could not have said any of that, like, a week ago.

Rich: It’s a game-changer.

Paul: This is a wild level of acceleration. We’re seeing inside of the company. We’re seeing it outside of the company. People are like, “Is AI going to replace humans?” Maybe, maybe not. People will continue to have that conversation. But I could argue, I think, kind of from first principles and with a real, real high degree of confidence that it will absolutely accelerate humans doing things maybe that they might not have been doing otherwise. Like, I’m not bringing this work to Aboard.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Nobody cares that I’m making synths here at work. But we’re moving so, so fast. And then I want to play this out just for one more second, which is you’ve got, if you look at China. China just has all these machines that make things. They sew, they put integrated circuits onto boards, and so on and so forth. And all of that world is actually hard to access. The world of making physical things is really hard, if you’re, like, a web programmer or—

Rich: Sort of a, it’s a particular corner of engineering.

Paul: It is. And it takes time, it takes thought. And what I realized doing this is, like, I really only have like two or three steps left to learn about before I could do a really bad job of making a piece of hardware and getting it shipped back from China.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: And I could do the operating system, I could do the PCB design, and I could make my own little…

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Very custom piece of hardware and start selling that. And I don’t want to do that.

Rich: Mmm hmm.

Paul: That’s not my interest. But that has been something where you have to read a book about it and you have to learn how things work in Shenzhen and so on and so forth. I think you could probably do like a week crash course, then make some goofy physical device and get it shipped back to you—

Rich: Sell it. Or sell it on AliExpress.

Paul: Or Etsy or whatever, right?

Rich: Or Etsy or whatever.

Paul: And so we’re not just unlocking research reports and faster code. I think we’re unlocking a lot of stuff. And I think what was, what isn’t there is I can’t say into a microphone, “Hey, make me a robot that dances.” Like, we’re not there. Right? And that’s what people understand.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: They understand, I say something and the computer does something.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: But I do think that if you have a rough sense of how data models work and digital logic and on and on, your access to, like, 50 zillion other things in the world has, like, the cost has gone down and is approaching zero.

Rich: Say that first part again. If you have a knowledge of what?

Paul: If you basically understand what technology is and how it works.

Rich: Stop there. We started this conversation with Mr. Bubble. Are we in a bubble?

Paul: Mmm hmm.

Rich: Okay. This is a weird moment because the old people have an absolutely exponential advantage.

Paul: Let’s say—when you say old, you kind of mean, like, skilled.

Rich: Yes. No, but also a cohort that experienced sort of a lot of the learning and a lot of the chaos of early tech. Now these technologies have shown up. Right? And you, as a curious, thoughtful technologist who understands many of the high-level concepts? Just found rocket boosters here, right? And you understood the context to use them within. You were actually feeling empowered by what you were learning in a very accelerated way.

Paul: Nor is a sneering senior engineer telling me I could never understand.

Rich: There’s that, too.

Paul: I mean, that’s a real thing, right? People love to say no.

Rich: People love to say no. People love to say—and you can play. And you can screw up, actually, and it’s not expensive, right? And all of that.

Paul: I actually don’t think that building a really good digital device that people would want to use and buy and marketing and bringing it successfully—I actually don’t think there’s much less work involved. I think that’s about as hard as it used to be. But I think getting started is almost free.

Rich: That’s where you are, right? And so when I think about a bubble, I think about sort of people betting heavy on the future potential of a thing, right? And I think we are in a bubble in one sense, and we are in something transformative in another. I think we are in a bubble in the sense that the promise of just saying, “Make me a microcontroller and a drum machine and you handle the shipping to Asia, back to America, and all that,” is far away, but also, I don’t think is additive in the long run. Because if I’m that person, if I’m, I don’t have this curiosity that you have, and I just want to essentially order shit in the box. Right? I don’t think that productivity leap, that incredible exponential growth that we usually see in economies will materialize because I will become a lump.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: We can easily navigate out of bubble land if we understand the empowering capabilities of these tools rather than as just being purely goal-driven and just giving me what I want. Right? And I think the promise right now is a lot of give me what I want. And that’s why vibe coding is shitting itself. That’s why a lot of tools, the shine comes off real fast.

Paul: This is, okay, I’m really glad you’re bringing this up. It was born as a consumer tool. ChatGPT 3.5—

Rich: Yes.

Paul: Anybody can use this.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: And it will help you with your homework.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: And I don’t necessarily think it’s that. I think it’s this sort of, like, weird, infrastructural, like, dynamic-change machine.

Rich: You are a very special flower.

Paul: Yeah. Everybody says that.

Rich: Because nobody else is thinking that.

Paul: I know.

Rich: Everyone is thinking, “The same box I use to order Pad Thai is going to be the box that helps me refinance my mortgage.”

Paul: Yeah. I think that’s a bubble.

Rich: That is the promise.

Paul: That’s the bubble.

Rich: And that is the bubble.

Paul: That’s the bubble. I think there’s a secondary, maybe non-bubble where the fact that things that used to have enormous friction in the economy.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: But still take a lot of work?

Rich: Yes.

Paul: Just have so much less friction.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: And that slowly will bloom into everything being cheaper, things being domestically manufactured by more robots instead of, you know, like—

Rich: There’s, there’s all sorts of, I mean, downstream—

Paul: But it’s not tomorrow.

Rich: It’s not tomorrow. And I think what’s as important is, to me, and a message to educators and parents: If there’s a class called Intro to AI, we already lost.

Paul: Mmm.

Rich: Group-based learning, project-based learning, problem solving, applied learning, so that high-level concepts get put through the wringer, so that young people are forced to sort of find paths in very ambiguous places, whether it be soldering an electrical board or whether it be thinking about, like, geopolitical challenges and how the UN works. I mean all of these things—

Paul: Look, my ChatGPT is educating me about how to work within the limits of this little tiny computer.

Rich: I think they, it can do all of those things. And it is, let’s not bullshit each other. It is absolutely transformative in its potential. That is real. Like, I am not going to doubt that.

Paul: I don’t think you have to say in its potential. It’s been transformative.

Rich: It’s been transformative. What I fear is that you have a lot of incentives to create solutions where people think less and get an outcome and get a result and get value, whatever you want to call it. Right? And why? Because that is smart for business. If you’re thinking a little bit less and you’re making transactions happen all day long—

Paul: If you can skip steps but charge the same amount.

Rich: All of it.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Right? And I think this is ultimately a challenge for education, a challenge for culture, to think about these things as empowering rather than as, like, convenient. [laughing] Like, you just, you can have whatever you want all day. Right? Like, that’s—I’ve seen music videos where people have used these tools in interesting ways because you could see that, you could see the artists trying to impose their creativity and their style, but still wanting to embrace the tools and not just reject them. That kind of tension is healthy. You’re negotiating with these things.

Paul: Well, you know, what’s, you know what’s wild. And I’ll describe, I think my final point is that, like, when I’m working with this technology to do this, I’m learning this new system of constraints.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Soldering and so on and so forth. And I’m trying to get the computer to work within it, and it’s generating the code and it’s debugging it. We’re kind of doing it together.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And then I end up in a pretty sloppy place and I have to start all over. The endgame, I don’t even know if it will necessarily be that much faster than if I sat down with a notebook and just wrote little lines of code all by myself and learned how to compile them and upload them to the Teensy controller.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: But that’s hard and requires discipline, and it’s pretty boring. And it’s not what I need to do for my day job.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And whereas this, it’s like, “Hey, I took a few swings,” and now we’re, now we’re having a conversation. It’s kind of a party. And I think that, like, what we’re doing a lot of is we’re devaluing that second kind of learning. But I think that’s probably the future of learning, which is, “I’m going to get you to a completed state, but it’s going to be wrong. And now you’re going to have to figure out what you really want.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And you’re going to have to articulate how you want the data to operate, and does a song have patterns, and do patterns have tracks? And, you know, all these sort of, like, you still have to figure out all the complicated stuff because it doesn’t know what you want.

Rich: It doesn’t know what you want. And the figuring out and the slight pain and the struggle… Can I end it on a philosophical note?

Paul: Of course you can.

Rich: All this convenience? I think just leads to depression. I think it leads to just you on episode nine with, like, Pad Thai noodles dripping on your shirt, because everything just sort of comes to you. And I think there’s such a gift on the other side of struggle. Everything’s too convenient. I live in an advanced society. My kids—everything just shows up. There’s endless shows. There’s all of that. Right? And now this thing showed up, which is, like, promising even more rapid delivery of taffy into your mouth.

Paul: Yeah. It’s true.

Rich: [laughing] And it’s depressing.

Paul: It’s a strudel—it just extrudes strudel all day long.

Rich: It’s, so how do you feel good about what’s on the other side of something you achieved or you pulled off or you’re figuring out? It’s almost—it’s just, it’s a gift, actually. That struggle, that little bit of sort of going out of sort of the comfortable place.

Paul: At the same time, it’s incredibly motivating to be able to skip a few steps and figure out what’s actually going on and then backfill that knowledge over time.

Rich: It tries not to make you frustrated. Right? And that’s meaningful. Sometimes it misleads. So you got to figure that out.

Paul: Yeah. But I’m no longer scared of creating and shipping hardware.

Rich: I’ll tell you what. I saw you, this happened for you. You sort of went on this journey and you came into work and you were utterly animated and interested and, like, happy about this thing, this place you went to that you didn’t even expect to go to.

Paul: I also feel that way about working here, of course. [laughter]

Rich: Check us out at aboard.com!

Paul: No, I will say, like, you know what it is? I’ll close on this—

Rich: I know, exactly…

Paul: But it’s also, it’s, it’s six classes. Right? It’s just sort of like, I’m gonna go to school.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And then I’m gonna go away from school.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And that, it’s fun.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Being six classes in school. That’s good. I gotta eventually go back to my job. I know that.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: But it’s fun to have a different thing to think about.

Rich: Yeah. If you’ve got kids, get them to explore. Don’t just give them the thing.

Paul: We’ll get them to make and do something at an incredibly accelerated rate.

Rich: Make and do something. I’m looking at high schools for my son right now. And, you know, we’re leaning a lot more towards projects-based, you know, where the tables are set up in circles.

Paul: Yeah, they’re great.

Rich: So they can work together and learn through some applied way. Why? Because of course, they could sit in rows and take it in. Boy, we get fed, like, constantly. There’s constant stuff coming at us, and we can just be passive consumers of it. We got to burn our fingers here a little bit. Like, I think it’s necessary and healthy.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Anyway, check us out at aboard.com. The product of a passion project. Probably the most challenging project I’ve ever been involved in.

Paul: 100% the hardest thing—

Rich: I love it. We’ve got engineers that are just some of the most talented I’ve ever worked with that are so leaned in, they’re sending us messages at all hours about ideas of how to change the world. And it’s a very exciting time. But check it out at aboard.com.

Paul: Take a class, too.

Rich: Take a class.

Paul: And send an email to hello@aboard.com and yeah, we’re here to help. Try our tool out. It skips the right steps. It gets rid of a lot of really boring stuff. But we do it for you and we actually do the work, and then you get the tool you always wanted.

Rich: Have a great week, everybody.

Paul: Bye.

Rich: Be well.

[outro music]