Paul Ford: Hi, I’m Paul Ford.

Rich Ziade: And I’m Rich Ziade.

Paul: And you’re listening to Reqless, R-E-Q-L-E-S-S, the podcast about how AI is changing the world of software. And you know what else is about to change the world of software, Richard?

Rich: What’s that, Paul?

Paul: The enormous economic shockwave set off by the tariffs that just went into effect today.

Rich: It is April 4, 2025, a day that may go down in history or may not. We don’t know yet.

Paul: Yeah, let’s… Here we go.

[intro music]

Paul: All right, so just in case someone is not looking at any source of media in any way, the economy seems to have taken about, like a 10% hit. [laughing] Oh, boy.

Rich: Yeah…

Paul: Because there are these tariffs that have been enacted by the Trump administration that are very global. And boy, oh, boy, if you like to look at a line go down, it has been the best two days of your life.

Rich: It’s been rough. Full disclaimer: Neither of us are economists or political commentators of any sort. We’re simple people, you and I, Paul.

Paul: I gotta tell you, I do not believe anyone in the audience is gonna be like, “Oh, hey, I’m here for the economic advice.”

Rich: I’m gonna say one thing. I’m gonna step out of my lane just for a minute.

Paul: Do it.

Rich: I’m 55.

Paul: Okay.

Rich: Years old.

Paul: He really is, folks. He’s not making that up.

Rich: I’m not making that up. And I’ve been around a while, and I’ve… And I also like reading history. And all I know is for the last, I don’t know, 70 years, it’s just been, we’ve just crushed it. Like, we’ve had our bumps, like ’08 and ’96, and there’s been, you know, they’re like, in the 70s, I remember everybody was on line to get gas, because there’d been some crisis. But, boy, speaking of lines, it’s just been consistently good. And I guess what I don’t understand now, it’s like, “We’re going to get you out of this disaster.” And all I could think to myself is, it’s not a disaster. [laughing] It’s been really freaking good for a really long time. That’s the extent of my economic analysis. My macroeconomic analysis is shit’s been real good, and so I don’t understand it.

Paul: Not for everybody. Not for everybody. We know this. We know this.

Rich: No, for pretty much, like, if you look at, like, standard of living, even for lower middle class, lower class, like, it’s inched upward pretty consistently for many years now.

Paul: It did, and actually many generations were able to enjoy that. Now, we got hit in the last decade or two by the incredible increase in housing and education and all that and so forth.

Rich: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: But, yeah, look, the fundamental reality is, like, if you were an American, kind of a golden ticket compared to most of the rest of the world. Might not feel that way if you’re an American, because the guy next door has a bigger SUV. But like, our basic standard? Woo! Good stuff.

Rich: There’s a reason everyone wants to come here.

Paul: Yeah, yeah, right. And so anyway, look, I don’t want to actually sit here and be like, the American economy and everything was getting better and so on and so forth. I do want to point out that according to The Verge, Trump’s new tariff math looks a lot like ChatGPT’s. And what people notice is if they said, make me a pretty good, like, tariff plan, and they put it into all the different LLMs, it kind of popped the one that they actually implemented right back out.

Rich: Dear God.

Paul: [laughing] So—

Rich: I mean, first off, I’m glad he didn’t use Midjourney. So that’s good.

Paul: I know, I know—

Rich: It could have been pictures.

Paul: We do have a few situations going on. Like, Laura Loomer going into the Oval Office and saying, “Fire these people.” Like, we’re in a real funny zone as a country. And I’ll tell you, for a while, I think it looked like only a few groups of people were gonna feel the pain, and now everybody’s gonna feel the pain. And we kind of saw it coming. Like, everybody knew this was on the table. But it’s really shocking, I think, for people when they see the number go down. Like, there’s a lot of internet posting that’s sort of like, “Wait a minute, the people who hated Trump could have been right.”

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: So just a lot of, like—Wall Street Bets is a treat right now. I don’t know if you’re on Reddit?

Rich: I’ve passed by a few times. Look, I think there is a theme here, and this is an AI podcast. And the theme I keep coming back to, whether you like uncertainty or not, is there’s a parallel narrative. Like, the thing about AI, it’s landed, and it’s been so aggressive and disruptive and has moved so fast. Like, I’ve never seen, like, software keep getting pushed every, like, two weeks. And each one is like, the brain is bigger than the last.

Paul: Not just the brain is bigger than the last. We’ve been talking about this. We wrote about—I wrote about in the newsletter. We talked about the last podcast.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: The infrastructure never quite landed, and now we’re starting to get standards and we’re starting to get baselines.

Rich: Starting to settle down.

Paul: Yeah. Well, you can actually work with it in a predictable way from week to week, and like, one of the things that we’re doing at work and we’re going to show with people at some point is like, you can make this technology behave. It’s not a random robot. It is actually a database. And you can kind of put it on rails and say—

Rich: That’s right.

Paul: Like, “Hey, I need to get this, this kind of output instead of that kind of output.” And it works.

Rich: That’s right.

Paul: Which isn’t at all like, “I’ve raised a magical star baby who will conquer the universe.” It’s more like a database.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: So I think they talk about it less and less, but things are definitely stabilizing. So yes, you’re right. It was very unstable for a very long time.

Rich: But I think, and here’s how I’m going to actually draw a connection here. I feel like politics right now, and now it’s seeped into the economy because policy, like, actual, actual tariffs are going into place, are very much driven by marketing. It feels like I am in the middle of one of the most aggressive, disruptive, chaotic marketing campaigns I’ve ever seen. Like, I’m in the middle of it and I can’t look away. And it reminds me of, like, AI didn’t just show up as, like, you know, the iPhone keynote. It showed up in—

Paul: Are you talking about global geopolitics or the economy or the Trump administration, like, which is the market—

Rich: I think, well, here’s the thing. Here’s I think what’s interesting is that I feel like what everyone has sniffed out is that if you jam the channel with the brightest colors possible, you can kind of do anything you want. Right? And I feel like—

Paul: There’s something I come back to. You ever seen the video for Drake’s “Hotline Bling?”

Rich: No. No.

Paul: Okay. It’s, like, him in just, like, a box. Like, he’s in like a, like—

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: A pastel-shaded box.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: It ended up becoming a meme and so on and so forth.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: I remember saying something about it and my friend Patrick, who we’ll have on the podcast real soon, just was like, “Yeah, that’s what a—” I was like, “Wow. You know, it’s nice with the simple colors. I get it. It’s like a whole aesthetic.” And he just went, “That’s what a baby likes.”

Rich: Exactly, exactly.

Paul: And it feels like we are marketing to, like, if it is marketing, if the tariffs are a kind of message being sent to the world, it’s like, for the baby. Like, they’re just gonna—it’s like, literally, someone is shaking keys all day long, assuming that we’re gonna just look up and go, [dazzled baby voice] “Oh my God!”

Rich: We have been watching the same Transformers action scene for, like, six months straight.

Paul: Have you ever seen a Transformers movie?

Rich: It’s un—yeah. It’s kind of fun because it’s just a lot of large machines crashing, but it’s a little nuts.

Paul: I had a friend, he wanted to go see one, just to kind of, like, get a read the zeitgeist. And, like, I will go, I will go watch anything. So I was like, “Yeah, absolutely. Let’s go do it.”

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And about 11 minutes in, he turns to me and he goes, “I really want to leave.” Because it was so loud. It was painful.

Rich: [laughing] It was so overwhelming.

Paul: And I turned to him and I was like, [Optimus Prime voice] “You are going to sit here and watch this entire piece of shit.” And I said it in Optimus Prime’s voice, because I can do that.

Rich: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: And we did. And, like, one of the robots had, like, a jet had a beard. [laughter] And it was really, really—

Rich: And you’re like, guys, what are you talking about? This is an AI podcast. Here’s what I’m getting at.

Paul: Listen, Rich, there’s nothing more AI than the Transformers. Let’s be real.

Rich: There’s nothing more AI than Transformers. Whether it be the release of a movie, the release of an album, the release of tariffs, or the release of what feels like a new version of the AI brain every three weeks, my advice across all of it is that what you’re going to find out is it fizzles out and it reverts back to some very basic, fundamental things. It always does.

Paul: I will be clear, right? Let’s go back. Let’s just talk about a couple market crashes, to put it into context. First one I remember was sort of pre-Clinton era, and then we had sort of, like, the long growth period.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: But I was, I was pretty young. It wasn’t hitting me that hard.

Rich: This is the. This is the ’90s.

Paul: Yes. I’m, like, young. In 2001—and actually, you know, one of my very first memories is in middle school, there was, it was Black Monday.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And it was the—or I think it was Black Monday, was the day that, like, the Dow just dropped out of nowhere in the ’80s.

Rich: Well that I don’t remember.

Paul: Oh yeah, there was one. It dropped like 700 points. I remember in the middle school—

Rich: Dot-com crash.

Paul: Dot-com crash.

Rich: 2000, 2001.

Paul: It was, like, right after September 11th. That’s a rough stretch, right?

Rich: It was starting to crash before then.

Paul: It was.

Rich: And then it crashed, and then 9/11 happened, and then it finished the crash. And—

Paul: It just kind of didn’t come back for a while.

Rich: Yeah. And I think, look, let us, let us kind of—

Paul: And then 2008 and then…

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: You know, so like here, so here we are. Okay.

Rich: Well, yeah, yeah.

Paul: I mean this is a tricky one because it’s an unforced error and they seem just hell-bent. They’re like, “No, no. Now that we’ve smashed it, we’re going to keep smashing it.” So I’m curious to see how that goes. But it always feels like the end of the world. So it’s really hard to tell—

Rich: This is the thing. I worked for a dot-com company that raised a lot of money. They opened an incredible office in Union Square.

Paul: Mmm hmm.

Rich: It was, like, they spent millions and millions of dollars for it.

Paul: That’s great. We’re opening an incredible office in Union Square.

Rich: Yes, but we didn’t raise a ton of money, thankfully.

Paul: Thank God.

Rich: But, no but—and then the crash happened. That company disintegrated. Everybody disintegrated. All sorts of companies disintegrated. And I really thought, “Oh wow, everybody’s gonna go back to malls.” Like, I really thought, I thought there’ll be some websites, there’ll be some like, you know, when it, when a video game comes out, there’ll be a marketing site. But I guess that was that. We tried to deliver pet food and it didn’t work out. And everybody, turns out, wants to go to the pet store. And I thought that was the end of it. And it turns out things settle back in and then the dynamism of just—and I’m going to say something nice about this country for a minute because it feels like everybody’s always telling us we’re falling apart, right?

Paul: Nobody has, on any side, has a lot of good things to say about America.

Rich: Not a lot of good things to say. And I think the sort of fundamental entrepreneurial spirit and resourcefulness of this country, they’re like, “Wait a minute. We laid down information pipes everywhere. There’s gotta be something here.” And it took two years. It took a couple of years to kind of find our bearings. And then we got up and sprinted again. And what was inspiring about that for me, I started a business on the other side of the dot-com era.

Paul: Mmm hmm.

Rich: And what was so interesting to me is that everyone wanted to connect and talk and actually understand how to get ahead and innovate and do good things and whatnot.

Paul: I have a different way of narrating that time, but it’s in some ways really similar, which is I was at a bunch of dot-coms. I got laid off on September 13, 2001 from an internet job. And I’m like in Brooklyn, which is literally smoking at that point. Like the whole—not the people.

Rich: Yep, yep.

Paul: And—

Rich: Some people were smoking.

Paul: Yeah. I started smoking. [laughter] It was a frickin’ bleak moment.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: What happened is, like, all the information architects and Topic Maps nerds and semantic—like, everybody kind of started, after, like, a little moment where we all got smashed.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: We’re kind of sitting on the edge of our bed. Somebody was like, “I want to do an information-architecture salon.”

Rich: [laughing] Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: It was like early Christians meeting in caves, right? Like just kind of like—

Rich: Exactly.

Paul: Boy, we got a me—we have a message, and, like, a fire that we want to keep lit.

Rich: Yeah. And by the way, this wasn’t just New York City. Like, I actually, you know—

Paul: No, it was not.

Rich: The seed for my business idea was I was sitting in a corporate apartment in Atlanta. But it didn’t matter because there was something still there. There was still that sort of desire to kind of try something.

Paul: It’s never done. It never goes back in the box. AI will never go back in the box. We’re not having an AI crash yet.

Rich: Your theme over the last couple of newsletters and you’ve mentioned it on the podcast, is that, okay, the marketing campaign fizzles out and things are starting to settle down. And now we can focus on predictability and quality as we look ahead. And you can build on that. And I’m convinced that we will. And I think—

Paul: With this technology, you actually can do it with your own hands. With crypto, it’s always a promise, right? With crypto, it’s like, next year you’re going to see the value of the blockchain. And it’s like…okay.

Rich: That’s right, that’s right.

Paul: But in this case, even though it’s different and difficult and so on, you write code that didn’t exist that would have taken a long time before, and it takes less time. And there’s all sorts of other things going on and it makes you pictures and so on and so forth. But there are certain things that it does where you’re like, “I can build on this and.” But it’s more boring stuff is the more interesting. It’s really good at bureaucracy. It’s actually less exciting as a creative tool.

Rich: That’s right. That’s right. And, and, and look, I, again, I’m not—

Paul: We’re a little far away from the crash of the economy, though.

Rich: Well, no—

Paul: Bring these worlds together.

Rich: Well, I mean, I’ve just. I’ve seen, I’ve seen us—I also, again, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna expound on what’s going on and what this is. It feels faker than an actual crash because, like, dudes did it. [laughing] Doesn’t feel like an actual, like, “Oh my God, we thought there was gonna be oil there, and it’s just dust,” therefore, crash. Like, it’s not that. It’s just. It’s kookiness. And so I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna expound on it. But I will say this, Paul, I will say that—

Paul: Here’s what’s tricky about that is, like, next week, Trump could fire Jerome Powell and we’ll lose 15% more of the market.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Or—

Rich: That’s the uncertainty. Right, yeah.

Paul: Or he could say, “I just negotiated an amazing deal with Brazil and we’re lifting all the tariffs.”

Rich: Good for me. Exactly. We don’t know.

Paul: And things would shoot back up. And so, but what happens is, after a while, the instability and chaos gets priced in. Certain aspects of the economy get more resilient, but, like, the, the fervent heat really settles down. And there is a kind of sense of like, “Where are we headed here?” Right? Like, this is the economy. We got immigration, so on and so forth. Let me, like, I’m seeing people actually who are pretty far, right, going, like, “What?!”

Rich: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, the right is pro-business. Right? And this is a shellacking, and everybody’s like, we got to be—okay, again, I don’t want to… What I’ve seen, what I’ve seen probably four times in my life, is this country’s ability to dust itself off and then sprint again. And I say that in contrast to a country like Lebanon, for example, that—

Paul: Sure.

Rich: That keeps stumbling. Can’t put it together. And this country seems to be able to put it together.

Paul: You know, how we put it together is through Keynesian piles of money dumped into the markets, right? Like, dumped into—

Rich: You do need predictability and stability to put it together.

Paul: Right now, and I don’t want to give people the willies, but right now, there’s no sign that we’re going to try to apply classic American, like, “All right, open up the coffers, let’s go, let’s stabilize this.”

Rich: Well, it’s a crazy new script, right?

Paul: So look, Rich, you and I are startup founders. Good for us. And we have money in the bank. We have less money now than we used to. And we have to keep a business going. We have to grow the business. We have to spend on things like marketing. We have to make sure that the product is right for the, for the current market conditions. Right? And one of our employees was like, kind of looking at us wide-eyed on Slack and going like, “Hey, what’s the plan?” And very honestly, we’re like, “Nothing’s changing,” right?

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Why—I didn’t even talk about you, talk about this with you before I said that. But it’s real. Nothing’s changing. Why is nothing changing? Why aren’t we reacting to this moment?

Rich: Well, look, I do think some things will change. And what will change is, you know, we sell. Ultimately, we are technologists, but we got to go out and sell what we have, right? And when you sell, you have to empathize and understand the sentiment and the mood of the potential buyer or the potential prospect, right? And when you do that, you’re like, “Okay, well, it’s going to be a more price-sensitive world,” right? People are going to shop for higher-value things, right? Because they can’t afford like, their budget that used to be 100 marbles is now 40 marbles. And so can we speak to that audience, right?

So I do think you have to, you have to rejig how you come forward, right? The signal you’re sending out. Why? Because people potentially are gonna be more sensitive to it. I think it’s New York City. I was about to say America, but it’s really New York City, is that New York City is just infinitely adaptable. It just is that, like, you have your hats and you’re gonna sell them for $100 bucks. But when the festival’s over and nobody wants hats, you sell them for five.

Paul: Yes.

Rich: Like, that’s just New York City. It’s just there’s something very dynamic about that. It’s, you know, and as a Lebanese person who pretty much sells barrels of olive oil, like, it’s about trade in a lot of ways. And when you trade, you think about sentiment in very profound ways.

Now look, I do think again, I’m saying sweeping things here, like, I think things that are luxuries that people can do without, I think could be more under threat because, like, do you really need that handbag? Like, I can wait on that one, right? Things are tight. Or, do we really need to travel to wherever? Why don’t we just take a road trip somewhere? Like, those are the kinds of things that seep into people’s minds, which is completely understandable.

But as a business—and there are many stories of people who actually built their fortunes or found success in very disruptive moments. Right? Where there’s opportunity that arises out of it. I feel like this country, which prides itself on not over-regulating and letting people kind of adapt and play, is very good at that. That’s kind of why I think we bounce back in a lot of ways. But you do need some calm to make bets. You do need some calm. That’s, I think, I’m not worried about today. I’m worried about, like, is it going to be loud in two weeks? That’s what I worry about.

Paul: The bookie can’t be drunk all the time.

Rich: [laughing] He can’t be drunk…

Paul: They got to write it down. Right now we’re, right now we’re in—

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: —we’re in the casino and everybody who works at the casino is drunk and running around with a gun.

Rich: That’s right. That’s right.

Paul: Okay, let me—I’m, you know, obviously we’re in business together and I agree with you. So I, like, no one’s gonna be shocked by that. Let me make a positive case for these technologies. The AI world.

Rich: Do it.

Paul: With the world that we’re entering. Okay, first of all, let’s focus on resource constraint. I have fewer resources. I need to do more with less. Certain things about this technology make it really good at doing more with less. Getting educated on that is smart.

Rich: Mmm hmm. Sure.

Paul: It’s good at filling out forms. It’s good at reading and analyzing things and making summaries. I don’t think you want to turn it into your salesperson. I think that’s a bad scene. But you can definitely, if you stop for a second, you say, “Okay, we used to do this this way and there used to be 25 steps and we waited a week between these two steps and so forth.”

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: “Could we automate some of this? Could we send a smarter email to the person? Could we actually look at the state of the overall project by looking at the tickets and then make a quick summary and actually prioritize a little better?” So there’s all these, like, sort of low-level efficiencies that if you really started to think through this, there’s probably, like, a 20, 30% shave-off on some of your costs, right? You outsource less engineering and do a little more in house or do more prototyping.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: You’re not going to give it your business, it’s not going to run it. It’s not that smart. Everybody needs to stop pretending. But there are efficiencies, so there’s that. I think there’s also so much of the work out in the world are things like legacy support and transformations of old code and all that. You can speed that stuff up. You can make systems more efficient. So you could go out and you could look for efficiency with this.

Rich: I mean, what you’re saying is it’s a fancy way of saying you could save money.

Paul: Yes.

Rich: You could run your business more efficiently, you won’t need as much—instead of five tools, you need two or whatever it may be.

Paul: So you and I used to run an agency, right? An agency is—and the thing about an agency is they run really hot. People come and go. It’s humans. It’s inbound leads. It’s a pure sales culture. And it’s a really tough business. Just flat-out, it’s a tough business. You’re not, you have to sell something really abstract to people over and over.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: It’s a high-ticket item and there are very few buyers, there’s lots of sellers.

Rich: Correct.

Paul: And so, like, an enormous amount of the pro-forma stuff that we used to do can actually be done by this technology. You can’t come up with the idea. It won’t write all the code. It’s not a great product manager. But it can really help with a lot of the clerical stuff.

Rich: Totally.

Paul: And you know what it can do? Faster. That’s the key. Yes, it takes more focus, but it can help you write the proposal faster. Now, if you just slop that proposal into a deck and throw it over the wall, you won’t succeed.

Rich: Yeah—

Paul: But you can go 5x faster with this stuff.

Rich: You can go 5x faster. And when you go—here’s the thing that I want to just clarify about what you’re saying. This isn’t about sending people home so the robots can do it. That’s not what this is. In fact, if you’re going 5x faster, you end up needing people for other things. Like, that is always how it plays out. But can you get more efficient? Can you frankly, not just be more efficient, but can you find opportunities better? Can you seek out new ways to market? Like, there’s the possibilities right now that are in people’s hands as they think about it. We had a, I mentioned it on the DeepSeek podcast, like, four weeks ago, which Fareed Zakaria stole, by the way, which I’d appreciate a thank you note from him.

Paul: I’m sure we’ll get one.

Rich: Constraints— [laughing] I doubt we’re gonna get one. Constraints are great. When you have constraints, like, what can you do within these constraints? It forces you to problem solve. These tools are incredibly good at, say, if you told these tools, “I have these constraints, what can I do within them?” Just to think more creatively, but also for yourself, like, as an individual. And by the way, this is sounding all like entrepreneurial advice. It could be just a better way to impress your boss. It could be a better way to impress your manager about how you can work better, right?

Paul: Let’s simplify this even more, and then we can we can go back to looking at the numbers go down. [laughter] It’s like a blizzard. Don’t panic. Don’t get out of the market and decide, don’t time anything. You don’t know anything. You can—and it’s not—

Rich: Nobody knows anything. [laughing]

Paul: No, nobody. Nobody knows anything. It’s not just about AI tools. It is actually just an opportunity. Monday is a wonderful day to go in, look at your boss and say, I have great news. I thought about it. I think we can find a way to make this go a lot faster and cheaper. And, boy—

Rich: They will appreciate that.

Paul: They’re going to forget about you for six months. Six golden months.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: While they worry about the other things. Because what is real about this world, especially in big orgs, when these numbers start to crunch like this, the boss comes down and says, “Okay.” They love—they use this almost as an excuse to streamline.

Rich: They’re scared. They’re not a Trojan horse or anything, like. It’s not a false flag or anything like that. They’re actually scared. They’re actually nervous and they can’t see too far out.

Paul: And what I would say is react to the fear with excessive rationality.

Rich: Mmm. Yeah.

Paul: And focus on speed and cost reduction and you’ll get through okay.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And I’m going to tell you, that’s what you and I are going to do here. It’s not like—and we’re not, it’s not even cost reduction. We have to spend, we have to grow. But boy, is this a reminder to you and to me, running our business, that we don’t have control over a lot of things, and the things we do have control over, we gotta run them real tight.

Rich: That’s right, that’s right. And that’s just good general advice.

Paul: That’s always the goal. It’s actually one of the reasons we’re a pain the ass to work with, because people are like, we seem fun. And then you in particular come down with the hammer and you’re like, “Why does it cost that?” And it’s literally because of today. Right? It’s because a year ago we anticipated today happening.

Rich: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: Now today is a relatively calm day. The number went down and Aboard’s okay, and we are going to get our frickin’ product into the market and it’s going to rule and it’s going to be really efficient and it’s going to help people get a lot of work done and it’s going to be timed real good.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: I feel really good about that. But if we hadn’t started thinking that way a year and a half ago, I think we’d be really anxious today.

Rich: I think that’s right. That’s right.

Paul: All right, so look, we’re just kind of—

Rich: I also have one more piece of advice though, before we wind this down, Paul.

Paul: Okay. What’s your advice?

Rich: Wherever you are this weekend, go get yourself a scoop of ice cream.

Paul: Yeah. And then pour a bottle of bourbon on top of it.

Rich: No—well, if you want. Not a bottle. Maybe a shot. Is that a thing?

Paul: Sure, I’m sure bourbon and ice cream—

Rich: Drunken Scooper? [laughing]

Paul: Yeah. Yeah.

Rich: You got a recipe, Paul, you want to share?

Paul: It’s called the Irish Sundae.

Rich: [laughing] Exactly.

Paul: I’m Irish so I can say that.

Rich: Check out aboard.com, if you have a minute. We’ve got fun things coming, we’ve got events coming, we’ve got all kinds of announcements coming soon. Take care of each other. Get that scoop of ice cream.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Bourbon? I don’t know. Hold off on the bourbon.

Paul: Actually, it’s a good weekend to just, like, get a little sunshine.

Rich: Get a little sunshine if you can. Hopefully it’s nice where you are.

Paul: And if you need us, hello@aboard.com. Check out aboard.com. We love you.

Rich: We’re also on YouTube. You can see our faces.

Paul: Yeah. My God, help us all. [laughter] All right, goodbye.

Rich: Have a good week. Bye.

[outro music]