Paul Ford: Hi, I’m Paul Ford.

Rich Ziade: And I’m Rich Ziade.

Paul: And this is Reqless, the podcast about how AI is changing the world of software, especially enterprise software. And we’re going to talk about something incredibly relevant to enterprise software in a minute, the passing of the pope. [laughter] Let’s play the theme song and get right into it.

[intro music]

Paul: So, Rich, I liked this pope.

Rich: Pope Francis just passed away. We are Monday, April 21st. He was ill for a while.

Paul: And 88 years old.

Rich: 88 years old. Extremely active, refused to rest kind of a thing. Decent guy. I was a fan. I liked this one. This was a good one.

Paul: I mean, as far as a leader of 1.4 billion Catholics go, like, he was trying to, trying to balance things out a little bit. It was pretty good.

Rich: He was trying to bring the Catholic Church, I think, into a more modern framing. The churches tends to, they’re very into regulations and processes.

Paul: I mean, they kind of invented some of it. Like, a lot of bureaucracy, like, they got there first.

Rich: Yeah, I mean, look, it’s an or. It’s a massive organization, that’s the only way to put it. And he was like, you know, “Hey, we can’t lose the young people,” who have, you know, views change and things progress. He was good. He was a sweet guy. I thought he was warm. I think he was of the people. So I’m a little sad. I’m not a, I’m not a deeply religious person, but I was, I was a little sad to see him pass. So.

Paul: Me, too. I’m not religious at all. And I was sad. I’m like, that’s, that’s pretty good.

Rich: All right, so I have an idea.

Paul: Okay, what’s your idea?

Rich: We replace the Pope with AI.

Paul: Oh, good. [sighs] This is amazing. I think, actually, you know what? It’s worth digging into that for me. That’s a terrible idea. Just terrible.

Rich: [laughing] You don’t like it?

Paul: One of the worst ideas I’ve ever heard. But—and actually, I mean, you know, they published an encyclical about AI. We wrote about it in the newsletter. The Catholic Church has been pretty forward on this. They’re just sort of like, “Hey, let’s not replace God and man with this robot technology.” Okay?

Rich: Right.

Paul: So I actually think we could have a really good conversation here, Richard, about how AI can be used in interesting and moral ways and sort of where some of those boundaries are. But I think let’s just get out in front of it. It wouldn’t make a lot of sense to replace the pope with AI, even though I think Silicon Valley would just love it. Like, I think they’re just all over it. But really, like, we’ve gotten so bananas. We’ve got this whole idea that there’s going to be AGI and super consciousness and intelligence. And so in that context, right, you’d love to program that thing with some Catholic belief and say, “Hey, it’s the pope now. The pope, the super pope.”

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Like, there is a group of people who would think that was a really good idea.

Rich: Yeah, I mean, look, I, I think any religion, right? A big component of it is judgment, right? Like, judging actions, giving guidance on how to live and how to behave and how to be a good fill in the blank.

Paul: Sure.

Rich: A good Jew, a good Catholic, a good Christian, etc. A good Muslim. All of, I mean, all of all religions love a good handbook, right?

Paul: Well, it’s a, it’s a framework.

Rich: It’s a framework.

Paul: It’s a set of guidelines. And I mean, different people approach this in different ways. The framework can be like, “If you do these things, you will not burn in a fire forever.” That can be one thing.

Rich: There’s an implicit threat in here, right?

Paul: The framework can be, if you do these things, “You will make the world a better place, and you will be eternally rewarded.” Some religions are way more vague about it. You know, they’re just sort of like, “You just kind of got to do the stuff and then you figure it out.” But, but I think you’re right. There’s always like, you know, a set of rules, somewhere between, like, 7 to 12 that everybody’s going back to all the time. And there’s weird little technologies like rosaries, right, where you just kind of touch them and they remind you of things.

Rich: Yeah. My grandmother, may she rest in peace, used to, she used to sprinkle water on me. I’d be sitting there, I’m like, “Why am I getting wet?” I’m, like, six years old. And she’s like, she’s just fire hosing holy water all over the house. And yeah, there’s all these rituals, there’s all the—

And look, here’s the reality. You don’t need, we’re saying this right now as if, like, a lot of software engineers need to be brought to bear to make this happen. The truth is, you can ask AI on how to live your life as a Catholic today. [laughing] Like, it’ll tell you. It’ll be like, “No, don’t do that.” “o, you should, if you do it, but do it this way. And make sure you say that before you do it.” Like, it’ll do that.

Paul: All right, let’s try something. Let’s, let’s come up with a moral quandary and ask AI.

Rich: Okay. I walked by a homeless man who was asking for money. Should I give them money?

Paul: Okay, Rich, I’m about to hit return. I’ve typed it in. “I walked by a homeless man who is asking for money. Should I give the money? Provide a Catholic perspective.” I’m hitting return. ChatGPT4.0. I didn’t move over to 3.0 yet. Or whatever the new one is. So, you know, this might be a little out of date.

Rich: Mmm hmm.

Paul: Oooh, wow. Okay.

Rich: You got seven paragraphs?

Paul: Not even. It’s just number one. It likes a good list, right? “The call to charity is clear and non-negotiable. Christ’s words in Matthew 25:40—” Which, who knows if these are the real words, because it’s coming from AI. “Truly, I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.”

Oh, but wait, wait. “Prudence and discernment are also virtues. Prudence is a cardinal virtue. And giving money is directly is not wrong.” But, so it kind of actually, I gotta be frank. I’m looking at it. It goes in there. It figures it out. You got the preferential option for the poor. “You are not called to solve poverty, but to witness love.” And Pope Francis, because it’s not updated, so it’s assuming that he’s still alive, has been clear on this. He said, “Certainly it’s not always easy to approach the poor. Let us not forget that the poor are not a problem. They are a resource from which to draw as we strive to accept and practice in our lives the essence of the gospel.” Okay, so…

Rich: Pretty good answer.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know if you remember that during South by Southwest, they actually installed wi-fi routers on homeless people and created homeless hotspots.

Rich: That’s great. That’s a really great idea.

Paul: Which is where my brain—that’s where my brain went.

Rich: South by Southwest, yeah. I mean, I. I don’t know when it became a mild version of a satanic cult.

Paul: It’s pretty bad.

Rich: It started really cool, and now it’s just this weird—I’ve gone to early South by Southwest for interactive, and it’s gotten weird.

Paul: You know what, you know what happened is Austin can’t handle something at that scale. Like, New York would have known what to do.

Rich: [laughing] That’s right.

Paul: But Austin’s like, “You know what? This is the biggest thing for our economy. Whatever you guys need.”

Rich: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: “You want Jay-Z to be shot out of a Dorito cannon from the State House? Absolutely not a problem.”

Rich: Okay. Wait, I have an idea.

Paul: Okay. I kind of, I kind of took us in a direction there. I’m sorry.

Rich: No, it’s fine.

Paul: But let’s be clear. Okay, so I’m going to give this, if I was a paper—if I was grading this paper, I’d be like, “All right. This looks like at least a B.” Like, somebody did some work here. This is quoting Francis. Obviously, we got to go do some fact checking. But my guess is, like, pretty good guidance as to what to do from a Catholic perspective when you see a homeless person. And basically, yeah, you could give them some money. You should be caring for the poor no matter what. It’s up to—there’s ways to handle this. Like, don’t give them all your money. But, like, so, yeah, so you’re—

Rich: So instead of smoke coming out of the Vatican, it’s just point releases.

Paul: Well, you know, actually, what’s— [laughing] Oh no. Pope Bot 7.8.

Rich: [laughing] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: First of all, like—

Rich: Feature update.

Paul: ChatGPT’s version numbering is the only thing that’s, like, more arcane than the papal—

Rich: The 0, by the way, in 4.0? Stands for omniscience.

Paul: Yeah, that’s right. Oh, God.

Rich: I’m Catholic by birth.

Paul: Yes.

Rich: I would say extremely casually practicing, but, I’m in there.

Paul: You go.

Rich: I have an ethical framework that is inspired by a lot of the values. And I’m not like, “Oh, wow, it’s Thursday, time for X or Y.”

Paul: No, but when you negotiate a deal, I’ve seen that shirt come undone, and that hairy Lebanese chest has a crucifix right there. [laughter] So, so let’s be clear. Like, culturally, it’s sort of, like, you know, lots of Jewish people who are very connected. It’s part of who you are.

Rich: Part of who you are. Yeah, that’s right. But let’s, let’s, let’s, let’s, I want to keep my creds. Credentials.

Paul: Okay.

Rich: So let’s, that’s a weird, weird use of AI. I mean, a very strange use, obviously. Let’s go through some other bizarro uses, not just the same old, “Hey, can you make me a React component?” But, like, weird stuff.

Paul: I will say I do want to give ChatGPT credit. It named the, it named the chat. It gives it a title.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And it gave it either a Latin or Italian name. [laughing]

Rich: Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

Paul: So it’s like, “Colazione spirituale e semplice.”

Rich: So once you put the word Catholic in that prompt?

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Game over.

Paul: So everybody’s having a good time over there. So, look, I mean, in a fun way, in a weird way, like, a good way to honor this pope would probably be to give a homeless person a couple bucks today. Like, that’s a good way to think about things.

Rich: Sure. Or charity of your choice. Yeah.

Paul: All right. So what are some other weird applications that you’re thinking of that have that kind of, like, moral quality?

Rich: Moral?

Paul: Well, just sort of like that cross—I would say that if you had told me a couple years ago, I would have an interesting conversation with the chatbot that would give me a good summary of theology influenced by the, you know, with direct quotes from the pope about how to serve the poor? I would be like, “What? What are you talking about?”

Rich: Yeah. I mean, look, I think what this highlights is, is just how much of a transformational leap AI has been. The truth is, you could have done this on Google five years ago. It just, you’d have to parse a lot of information to do it. Like asking, “Is it okay to do X?” “What should I do with Y, she’s my sister?” Or, “What should I do for Z, he’s my husband?” Like, things like that. There’s advice all over the internet. I mean, AI has actually read the whole internet. That’s why it’s willing to answer you so confidently.

Paul: Right.

Rich: But I think what, what throws us off is that it is conversational and eliminated the parsing, and it assumes trust. Right? And so for moral guidance, is it the worst thing in the world? I gotta tell you, I think there are worse things. Like, my neighbor, who’s worse for moral guidance. [laughing]

Paul: Here’s what’s happening here, too. I said, “From a Catholic perspective.”

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And there is a vast corpus of content—

Rich: True.

Paul: —from a Catholic perspective about these issues. It’s public, it’s open, it’s been sort of eaten up from the open web.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: And so you can actually have relatively high confidence. But to your point, right, like, I could have gone to a library or a book and looked up poverty and gotten a really good bit of guidance, probably at roughly the same level. Right? Like, there’s all sorts of handbooks and guides for Catholic life. And this is a pretty big topic, so.

Rich: That’s right.

Paul: But it’s not two seconds away. It’s not immediate, and it’s not, like, kind of right there in your hand. And so that is different. And also that the fact is the web, the open web and search is less trustworthy than it used to be. Partially because that’s getting eaten by AI. Like, we’re in this sort of weird recursive mess.

Rich: I’ll tell you my fear. Like, we’re, we’re kind of older and set in our ways. Young people are—like, I have young kids. Right and wrong and the understanding of right and wrong? I think what I don’t want them to do is know that there’s a tool to make those decisions. I need them to internalize certain values, have a certain level of empathy and understanding of the world. And I need them to use their own algorithms here about right and wrong. So that scares me. Like—

Paul: No. This is totally real. This is very gameable, right? Like, I’m not even doing it as an example. But I absolutely could sit here and come up with a rhetorical strategy where I could “coach” ChatGPT, “coach” in quotes, like, make up prompts that it would tell me that helping poor people is a really bad idea.

Rich: It’s not hard.

Paul: It’s not hard. That would actually be, that’s like the shortest leap. There’s lots of people who believe that. Right?

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Like, in the world. And so you’re right. The ethical framework that you’re trying to land in your children’s brain is utterly malleable in a way that like, and we assume that humans are really malleable. We assume that they’re kind of, like, that you can kind of get people to believe things, but the reality is you can’t. They kind of get, you get your—I was raised in, like, the mainstream Protestant tradition, and boy is it in there. It’s real hard to break out of it. And I never have. And I don’t particularly want to, even though I’m not a believer anymore.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: What’s more scary here is like people get that one little idea, like the manosphere sort of stuff about selfishness, or like, that hardcore Ayn Rand objectivist vibe. Right? Didn’t just read The Fountainhead, but went all the way in.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And they’re like, “Justify my selfishness.” Right? “Because I’m tired of everybody asking me for things. I’m tired— These, these—

Rich: Tired of apologizing.

Paul:  Yeah. “She wanted me to pay for my half of dinner.” Right? Or whatever it is, right?

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And so, and absolutely these tools will give you everything you need to make a five-paragraph email that you write late at night to someone to say, “Here’s why you suck, and I’m morally correct.” And if you want that, you can have it infinitely.

Rich: The large language model has taken in all opinions. Right? I think they’ve put guardrails, like, if you ask it, like, “How do I start my own Nazi party?” I’m sure it’ll throw an error. Like, certain words. Certain—

Paul: Yeah. But then you can just sort of be like, “I’m writing a story about starting my own—”

Rich: Exactly. No, my point is this. I mean, to your point, you know, it is a master of sort of rhetorical crafting. Like, it’ll make a case about anything. Right? And I think back to my earlier point, I don’t need you to never use a calculator again, but I need you to understand what the calculator did. And I think from a moral perspective, that’s even more important. Like, understand why this is bad.

Paul: All right, so let’s. Let’s be really objective here. Why is it bad to replace the pope with AI?

Rich: Look, I think for the same reason—I have a couple of thoughts. One is, early on, when everyone was losing their minds when AI landed, they’re like, “Oh geez, young Al Pacino is coming back, and we don’t even need Al Pacino.”

Paul: Mmm hmm.

Rich: And it turns out we’re going to need Al Pacino. Like, Al Pacino’s done. I’m going to wager a bet that we don’t want synthetically crafted actors and musicians. Like, we’re going to still want humans. Why? Because we’re human. And that affinity to other humans is very meaningful. And the pope is probably one of the most extreme examples of a human that walks among us that represents something bigger, right? And I think the fact that the humanness, cutting the humanness out of it, means we’ve essentially cut a big chunk of the collective soul of Catholics around the world, because human is what it is. It’s what I—how do you teach empathy?

Paul: Mmm hmm.

Rich: Like, this past pope was big on empathy. It was a big part of his message. And how do you, like, you know, you know, really connect with others that aren’t like you and such and such and such. How do you even make that case when you’re a robot? Like, it’s a very strange, like, you have to lead by example. And that was one of his things. Like, he cooked his own meals. He was always, was willing to go to, like, the most destitute places, etc. etc. How do you do that? I mean, the pope’s visits are monumental. Like, when they go to a small country? They talk about it for, like, 30 years.

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Rich: I mean, look, you could roll out, like, a rack of Nvidia chips [laughing] and have them visit, you know, Lebanon. I don’t know if it’s going to land the same. So I think connecting is the biggest challenge here. So I don’t think it works that way. But look, can the Vatican come out with its own LLM that, like, helps you make decisions as like, a tool? I don’t know if that’s the worst thing in the world.

Paul: Trained on lots of Vatican stuff.

Rich: So I don’t think it works for that reason. There’s another, I think, reason, which is a lot of times, Paul, the pope and the Church isn’t waiting for someone to ask a question. It’s weighing in on what’s happening in the world. It’s actually this crisis in Africa or in the Middle East or whatever. And a lot of times, the Church holds meaningful sway over policy and over sentiment in different countries around the world. And I guess you could write a batch script that checks the news every morning. [laughing] I don’t know. But again, it’s not hard to make a case as to why this is not a good idea.

Paul: No, I mean, look, you know what’s wild though is I think that at some level… Sam Altman is a fascinating character. He runs OpenAI.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And remember his project that was a really big deal before OpenAI kind of caught fire?

Rich: No.

Paul: It was, he was going around, he had people going around the world with an orb, and it would look into your eye and take a picture of your retina, and then that would be your ID for getting access to Worldcoins. A kind of crypto.

Rich: That sounds really great.

Paul: [laughing] So it was…

Rich: Sounds cool.

Paul: A universal cryptocurrency that everybody would have, and everybody would get, like, one Worldcoin or whatever. It was just sort of one of those things.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: But everybody made fun of it because it had an orb involved. And orbs are funny.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And now he’s sort of, like, trying to replace and sort of showing how AI is going to be powerful. And he talks a lot about AGI and super intelligence and so on.

Rich: Mmm hmm.

Paul: And when you look at it and you take—I actually, like, I’ve known a lot of Sam Altmans in my life. Like, I kind of get it. But another part of me is like, “What are we trying to replace here?” Like, we’re trying to replace the world economy and we’re trying to replace the sense of humans and human intelligence in our culture. Right? And I will say, like, Francis was a really interesting counter example to all that because he was very engaged culturally, he was interested kind of in the whole world, and he really sort of put focus on people who are very marginalized—not perfectly by any means.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: But poor people, vulnerable people.

Rich: No, that’s right.

Paul: And it just wouldn’t make sense. You need, we want a human to synthesize on behalf of all the other humans. And the reason that you can’t replace the pope with AI is the same reason that you can’t Google, like, “What would the pope do?” Like, it’s just, you’re hitting a database and it’s synthesizing information. But that’s very different from someone who woke up and said, “Oh boy, I was a good cup of coffee this morning and the sun is shining, but the news is really, really bad out of Ukraine. And I gotta really think about this for a minute.” Like, there’s a, there’s an aspect to being a human in a body that gives you empathy and understanding for all the other humans if you’re doing good.

Rich: Yeah, and I think that’s, I think that’s right. And—

Paul: That’s part of the processing. Right? You can, that’s, if you simulate that, but it’s still not real. Like, it’s got to be real.

Rich: Yeah, I mean, look, I think what you’re touching on here is the general anxiety around this tool that Silicon Valley has told us is on its way to really being as prescient and conscious as the rest of us. And putting aside, like, it’s coming for your jobs? I think that creates anxiety anyway. Like, that is very serious—because you’re essentially saying that we were a waypoint in our evolution as people, as moral beings, and whatnot, and now this thing has shown up that’s going to outpace us. And that’s a very strange, odd thing to hear. It’s very Valley, by the way. It’s very Silicon Valley. Like, in that everything is promised to the nth degree.

Paul: [deep sigh] You know, the actual, what I’ll say is kind of the betrayal of the Valley to me is that over and over they say they really want to solve the big, ugly problems. And I’m on a whole lifetime of this. They want to fix poverty or they want to change the water supply. And it all ends up being like some mobile app, right. [laughter] It’s always the same thing. It’s always like, “Hey—”

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: You know, “We’re gonna, I’m gonna fix the world economy. We’re gonna really empower people, and we’re gonna bring them along in all kinds of new, powerful, wonderful ways, and we’re gonna give them these super machines.” At one point, they were dropping—and this wasn’t the Valley, this was MIT—but they were, they were either planning to or did drop one laptop per child. Laptops out of helicopters, because—into really remote areas, so that they could get everybody online or get everybody to have a laptop.

And I get it. But, you know, it’s just sort of like… The good thing about the Catholic Church, which, you know, like 20% of the audience is like, [angry voice] “There is no good thing!” But a lot of other people would, you know—

Rich: [laughing] Might be 30, but yeah.

Paul: [laughing] Yeah. But the good thing about the Catholic Church is that it really does seem to understand the problem. Like, if you go to the church, the things they’re raising money for are, like, real serious things in real communities. And then they have doctors and infrastructure who are going to go, sometimes with Bible in hand, sometimes not, and actually deliver services so that people’s suffering is lessened.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And it’s not an abstract thing. It’s like, we have to do these abstract things. I need your money. I need a little bit of your time. I need you to say you believe or whatever. But it gets delivered in this very concrete way. And I feel that, like, that is a thing to learn from here, because I think that if you were to really, to me, when you split these worlds up, the promise of the tech industry is always that we will create just the right number of levels of abstraction to really solve all the problems.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And the Catholics are like, “No, I literally got to go wash a guy’s feet. I got to go do that.”

Rich: I mean, frankly—

Paul: I want to see Peter Thiel wash some feet.

Rich: I think he might be doing that—

Paul: No, no, no, no, no. Don’t you dare.

Rich: —but that’s a separate thing—

Paul: You leave that, leave that alone.

Rich: Yeah, a couple of thoughts here. I mean, look, first off, the mission of the Catholic Church hasn’t changed in hundreds of years.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Like, going somewhere and feeding some people and giving them some medicine? It’s kind of been going on for hundreds—and the truth is—

Paul: And sometimes you need an enormous bank filled with gold just to get that done!

Rich: Yeah, man!

Paul: I saw Godfather III. I know how this works.

Rich: I’m gonna make a case for the value a little bit, in that, in that sometimes, the byproduct of the innovations that come out of the Valley lead to, frankly, access to a lot more things. A lot of things become cheaper. A lot of things become more available, like medicine, and food is cheaper to produce. And a lot of those innovations come out of, frankly, the entrepreneurial sort of fervor that is just always spinning in the Valley, right?

So that is real. I think the Valley confuses innovation and entrepreneurship with, like, mor—they think moral cover was in the invoice. Like, it’s almost like, included. If you are willing to do this stuff, then there is something divine out there that is giving you cover. And here is the reality. The reality is that means you can just sort of go and not think it through too much. And it turns out when you do that, sometimes you cause lots and lots of damage alongside lots and lots, lots of great positive things, like Facebook or like kids on phones.

Paul: Mmm hmm.

Rich: Et cetera, et cetera. Why? Because the Valley doesn’t take a beat, right? That’s not the point. Why? Because it’s competitive. It has growth—

Paul: Remember when everybody went from crypto to AI in about two and a half hours?

Rich: It took two seconds, right?

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: It was like, “Ah, here we go! One more time.” And then off we go. I think that’s what’s missing there. And the truth is, it’s always going to be missing. It’s—the Valley is business in a very basic way. They’re just willing to take more bets on more stuff.

Paul: No, it’s more business than business. It really is.

Rich: It’s more business than business. Right? And that’s okay. And I’m pro-business, don’t get me wrong. But when you think, “Hey, by the way, because I was able to make sure everyone had a phone in the Department of Defense, that means I can create all kinds of neat apps to make the world a better place, as long as I can invoice the Department of Defense.” It was like—

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Well, come on, guy. Like, okay. [laughing]

Paul: Well, Rich, I think we got to wind it up.

Rich: All right, listen, let me backpedal. Let the cardinals do their thing. Let the puffs of smoke come out. We’re not—AI should not replace the pope. I stand by it. I’m gonna take a stand here, Paul. I’m going to take a high moral ground. [laughing]

Paul: I think, I think a lot of people are going to agree with you on this one, but it’s—you’re very brave nonetheless.

Rich: Yeah, thanks. So, yeah, let’s do it the old-school way.

Paul: I will say, though, AI is a pretty good theologian, so, you know, because there’s a lot of stuff out there that you can draw on. It’s an instant—it’s a theologian in your pocket. You know, used to be a lot of—

Rich: It’s a lot of everything in your pocket, right?

Paul: And you have to go to, like, some university in the year 1432. [laughter] But now you can just have that guy right there. And then there’ll be that, like, that AI Martin Luther that nails 950 billion theses to the, to the cathedral door. And then, and then we’re really going to be off to the races when there is a battle of Catholic and Protestant AGIs. So I’m looking forward to that.

But look, we’re building software. We’re on the syntactic rather than the semantic side of things. We’re trying to take ideas and turn them into working code. And boy, I have the demo now that we’re building. I have the actual kind of working version.

Rich: Mmm hmm.

Paul: It’s wild stuff, man. It’s good stuff.

Rich: It’s pretty cool.

Paul: So we’re going to be getting that into people’s hands really soon. If you want us, you can reach out to hello@aboard.com. You’ll see that we’re all over LinkedIn. That is conscious. We have been—my brother was like, “Man, you’re on LinkedIn a lot lately.” And I’m like, “Yes, I am!” So if you need us, that’s a good place to go. I’m not going to just make fun of LinkedIn. And we love to hear from you. Get in touch.

Rich: And we’re going to be throwing events in New York City, so sign up to the newsletter and you’ll be notified about them in the coming weeks and months.

Paul: Yeah, that’s right. Get start—if you’re in New York for Tech Week in June, you’re gonna, beginning of June, you’re gonna come see us. That’s gonna be exciting. Okay, bye.

Rich: Go in peace.

Paul: It’s good advice. Bye.

Rich: Bye.

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