Episode cover featuring a card with the words 'real' and 'fake' and the title "The View from the Top of the Funnel"

Rich and Paul talk about that most evergreen and thrilling of subjects—the marketing funnel! How it starts, where it goes, what makes it better or worse, and the great and deep importance of onboarding in this world.

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E7

The View From the Top of the Funnel

December 5, 2023

It’s gonna get a little market-ey so bear with us:

And there were these two dudes who did great onboarding tutorials but everything is so SEO-optimized I can’t find them any more; if you know what I’m talking about get in touch.

Paul Ford: Richard.

Rich Ziade: Paul.

Paul: Hey, it’s good to see you here on the Aboard podcast. I’m Paul Ford, co-founder of Aboard. Rich?

Rich: And I am Rich Ziade, the other co-founder of Aboard.

Paul: And Rich, I want to take you on a little journey right now, are you ready?

Rich: I am.

[intro music]

Paul: Okay.

Rich: Are we going to Dave and Buster’s?

Paul: Oh my God, man. Have you been to Dave and Buster’s?

Rich: Yeah, it’s not good. I do not… this is an anti-endorsement of Dave and Buster’s. I had a turkey sandwich there, it was terrible. Even if you win in the video game there, your game is over. It’s a depressing place a little bit. My kids like it. I don’t know.

Paul: It’s not really an arcade. Like, you can’t win, it’s just, it’s just we’re going to funnel money away from you as a, as a process.

Rich: Yeah, I think that’s right.

Paul: Anyway, that’s not what this is about. That’s not what this is about.

Rich: No.

Paul: Although at the end—it’s just like after you spend $80 and your son gets 3 cents worth of Pokémon cards, and you’re like… [sighs]

Rich: You start to feel like a fool. [Laughter] It’s a lot.

Paul: Let’s just talk about—what people want to hear us do is complain about Dave and Buster’s. So we’re not gonna do that.

Rich: Take me on a journey, Paul.

Paul: Right. Thank you for reminding me about the podcast that we’re currently doing. Rich, did you see our ad on reddit.com?

Rich: I did not…

Paul: Yes, you did. Yes, yes, you did.

Rich: Oh yeah. Yeah. It’s great. It’s great. Uh, it was in a subreddit called productivity.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Where they give tips. People give tips and like, check out this new tool. It lets you create shortcut keys for doing this and doing that. And it’s great. And I saw her ad and it was neat to see an ad.

Paul: Now, did you click on the ad for Aboard. com? Yes. Yes, you did.

Rich: You know, the video was so snappy, I paused. Usually I scroll with like a bit of drool coming off the corner of my mouth on Reddit.

Paul: Mmm hmmm.

Rich: And here I was like, “Huh, this looks like an intriguing product,” and I stopped, and then I tapped on it. And then it did something weird, actually. It didn’t take me somewhere else. It sort of split Reddit in two. The video kept playing, and then it showed some marketing stuff.

Paul: And then, where did you go? Did you go to our website at Aboard.com?

Rich: It was on my phone. I tapped on “Get the free app” and I was taken to the app store, at which point I closed my phone.

Paul: [Laughter] Did you get the app?

Rich: I did.

Paul: Alright.

Rich: It’s a beautiful app. I was like, let me try this thing. It’s free. First off, it’s free. So, I downloaded the app. As soon as I got into the app, I had to sign up.

Paul: Mmm.

Rich: And I signed up. I was like, okay, I can sign up. Now, I wasn’t going to fill a form out, but it did let me sign in with my Apple ID. I’m on an iPhone.

Paul: Mmmm hmmm.

Rich: And, uh, once I did that, uh, it said, “welcome to Aboard.” It gave me a little onboarding experience, like cute little, you know, visuals to explain what the thing was.

Paul: Mmmm, onboarding. Okay, okay, good stuff.

Rich: Yeah, I mean, I know the term. I don’t think other people call it onboarding. I think they see it as like, introduction to the product.

Paul: We could talk about that. And then, now, uh, you’re subscribed to our newsletter, and, uh, you’ve been…

Rich: Okay I didn’t know that.

Paul: Oh, yeah. That’s comin’.

Rich: Let me just get that out there.

Paul: Did you get that welcome email, or maybe the second email, saying, “Hey, we’re glad you’re here,” and some tips and tricks?

Rich: I did. I got, I got both. I got, “Thanks for signing up. Welcome to Aboard.” And then I got a follow up with like, “Hey, here’s some cool ways to get going.” It’s a lot. I mean, this all started with me scrolling through a subreddit.

Paul: I mean let me be clear, you are one out of maybe 20, 30,000 people. You’re a very special person.

Rich: Yeah. I can’t tell if that’s a compliment or an insult.

Paul: Well, we’ll find out. So look, what I just had you do was walk with me through, ready for this word, ready for a very business-y word.

Rich: I am.

Paul: The Funnel.

Rich: Oh boy.

Paul: Yeah, The Funnel. Just think of a triangle, and at the top of the triangle—it’s a triangle with the pointy end pointing down, and at the top of it is mass humanity flooding in, and every step, fewer and fewer people actually do the things that are in the funnel. So, you need people to click on the ad. Well, that’s all of humanity, we show them an ad. As many as we can, and they click on it, and a certain percentage click through.

Rich: Most fly by.

Paul: Most fly by. Certain percentage click through, certain, certain percentage are like, “Actually, that looks good to me. I’m going to go install the app.” Okay, and then they actually get to the app store, only a certain percentage actually install the app.

Rich: I see. So what you’re saying is it sort of takes me on this little journey and every step of the journey, you shed some people. They’re like, “EhhI don’t feel like dealing and downloading an app” or “ehhh I don’t feel like doing this” or “ehhh I don’t feel like doing that…”

Paul: I mean think about yourself through the course of the day. All the things that you shop for and don’t buy.

Rich: Right.

Paul: And so, that leaves a little trail, and you kind of get to know those percentages. That is the funnel. So we’re in this interesting spot as a startup, where a lot of the software is built—there are features to come for Aboard, like a table view that’s really robust and strong. We’re working on it. More mobile stuff, more editing on mobile. Like I can, I can list a hundred things, but none of those are the things that will make or break us. They’re, they are things we have to build, but they don’t define the product in the same way that like saving cards and making them visual, like these big product features.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: So now we have something that works, that people like, that I guess, you know, actually at this point over a thousand people are in and using on a regular basis. Okay? And now we have to go tell the next hundred thousand.

Rich: Yeah, I think if I can pause the little exercise for a second and just mention—we’re software people.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: I wouldn’t consider myself a marketer. And we couldn’t be more excited at the level of engagement once people make it through. It’s excellent, like, by any measure, like there are known statistics out there of what good engagement is and the engagement on this product is really, really, really good. Where we’re having to pretty much go back to school is figuring out just the the classic as-seen-on-TV red-meat way to get people all the way through those steps to get in there, because once they come in they seem to love the food.

Paul: Exactly. So that part, I don’t think we should talk too much about, because we’re learning. Like it’s so, we don’t have great advice yet. We’re running ads in different places where we just, I just reached out to a bunch of people about smaller newsletters. Some things cost $150 a week and other things cost like $7,000 a minute.

Rich: Sure.

Paul: And so we are wrapping our heads around that world. But what’s funny, so okay, so we got to go learn that. We’re off to do that.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And when we learn things, we’ll tell you here on the podcast. I’m not going to pretend to be a marketing expert. We’re we’re, but once you get down that funnel and we’re doing onboarding, we’re doing pretty good.

Rich: We’re doing really good. Like actually, objectively, there’s there’s just known metrics out there of what good engagement is on a software product and we’re doing very good. We’re doing very well.

Paul: So I want to, I want to ask you, because you were the product manager on this, okay? We were not doing that well at one point. It was, onboarding was kind of all over the place.

Rich: Well, you just said the word “onboarding.” And, and, and let’s, let’s now…

Paul: And to be clear, like I want, I want to just get out in front of this. This is all your responsibility and mine, right?

Rich: Yes.

Paul: Like people did this work for us, but we told them what to do.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: So here we are, the first couple versions weren’t that great. So yeah, tell the people what onboarding is.

Rich: Um, I’m gonna say it through an analogy. When you walk into a big supermarket, right? You are effectively, you’re flooded with choice. Flooded, flooded, flooded with choices.

Paul: Well, wait, how, how big? Because people out there, if they’re in New York City…

Rich: Walmart. It’s a Walmart.

Paul: Oh, okay. Not like, not like Key Food.

Rich: A giant—even Key Food, but let’s go bigger. Let’s say Walmart.

Paul: What about, what about C-Town?

Rich: C with the letter C-Town. Again, a lot of information coming at you. The minute you walk in, right?

Paul: Yes. Okay.

Rich: And, and what you gotta keep in mind is for someone coming in the very first time, they have no obligation, they’re instantly bored, and they could just flip over to Instagram in like three seconds and entertain themselves. And…

Paul: We’re at the… But wait, I’m confused. Are we at the supermarket or on our phones?

Rich: Let’s go back to the supermarket.

Paul: Okay.

Rich: Okay, when you step into the supermarket, I need to A, get your attention, B, get you to pause and take in some new information, and C, hopefully get you to keep going and convert based on that new information. Now, why am I bringing up the supermarket?

Paul: Alright, now you be the, you be the supermarket. I’m gonna go in the supermarket. Ready?

Rich: Go into the supermarket.

Paul: Oh man, I need to get some apples.

Rich: You walk in. The fir… Doritos, uh, Chicken Ranch is here. It’s a giant display, about 8 feet high, yellow, it’s got bags of Doritos in it, and guess what? They’re 50 cents, whereas Doritos is usually $4 a bag. Because I want you to try it.

Paul: You know what, that  looks amazing. I thought I was gonna buy healthy apples, but I hate myself, so maybe I’ll have some of those.

Rich: Yes, now—

Paul: No, no, damn it. I’m not going to have those. No, because I’m trying to live an extra year or two.

Rich: So here’s the first thing that we needed to have happen. If I had put that display in the back of the supermarket, you wouldn’t have seen it. I needed it to be front and center. I needed, essentially, you’re almost like a rat in a maze. I need you to see this immediately. And by the way…

Paul: What’s the worst, what’s the worst part of Doritos, by the way? Like I’m, as you’re saying this, I’m getting Dorito mouth. Do you know what I’m talking about?

Rich: I don’t want to know what you’re talking about.

Paul: No, but it’s like that, they’re so salty…

Rich: Oh, it’s the worst. I don’t like Doritos by the way.

Paul: Your mouth, and your hand, your hands get that feeling and it’s like simultaneously greasy and dry.

Rich: It’s awful. It’s awful.

Paul: Like, it’s, yeah, it’s like, it’s like you’ve been at the beach too long and someone has poured ranch dressing all over your body instead of suntan lotion. That’s a…

Rich: [Laughter] I don’t know how many Doritos you’re eating, but it doesn’t sound good.

Paul: Well, again, before Mounjaro, but now? Not so many.

Rich: Yeah, yeah. Um, so positioning, essentially, I need you to, I need to interrupt your flow actually. You’re, it’s like a, it’s like a toll booth. I need to stop you, get you to stare at the big yellow display, and I need you to take a minute. And you may not, a lot of people…

Paul: But why do you need it? I just want to buy some apples. Why you got to do that? I’m going to come give you my hard-earned money. Why you got to sell me Doritos?

Rich: Well, I mean, that’s the thing, it is… by the way, to convince a supermarket or to convince a Walmart to put a display front and center? That is prime real estate, right?

Paul: Right.

Rich: Because they know that you’re just coming in, you haven’t made a choice on which aisle yet. It is, people pay money to do that.

Paul: This broke, this broke my heart when I learned it about bookstores, like the big ones.

Rich: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: Like the end caps, the ends of the, the shelves.

Rich: The aisles, yeah.

Paul: The aisles, yeah. Are real estate. Like, the publishers would buy them. And actually, what, what they’re finding, interestingly, is that by letting the bookstores actually control those more, and making it less about commerce and more about experience, bookstores are performing much better in, in the real world because you can, you know, cause basically everybody’s jamming it down your eyeballs on Amazon, right? But if you’re going into the bookstore, you actually are looking for a kind of connection and it rewards that.

Rich: You’re on a journey, right? And your attention is split. What are we competing with? We’re competing with the fact that the device the person is on that is visiting a new experience that they’ve decided to give us a minute on has given that person 5,000 other options for entertainment and some are Incredibly familiar and gratifying to them. And so we’re competing with such deep patterns and we need you to stay here for like an extra minute. We don’t need 20 minutes. We just need a minute. And so we have to catch your attention.

Paul: But, but it’s a consumer minute, not an enterprise minute. Enterprise minutes are cheap. You have to use this to fill out your expense report? I can make you watch an hour-long video.

Rich: Welcome to the firm. Let me show you the tool we use to get our work done. It is how you will get paid.

Paul: Then I am going to…

Rich: [Laughter] Very different.

Paul: If it takes me a week to learn all the little forms.

Rich: That’s right, this is partly why enterprise software or, you know, corporate software is so awful. It doesn’t have to be great, it doesn’t have to be engaging. And so…

Paul: You know what is throwing people, though, and this is an interesting side note, and I think this is driving a lot of change in the entire industry, is that young employees have never used laptop computers.

Rich: They grew up on phones and touch screens. Yeah.

Paul: iPads, touchscreens, whatever, right? And let’s say they didn’t go to college, maybe it’s not a college job. It’s like a security guard job. 

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: They still have to do the onboarding and watch all the HR videos.

Rich: That’s right.

Paul: And it’s all on desktop, so what happens is in order to get them to do the compliance stuff, they have to teach them how to use a computer first, which is ridiculous.

Rich: That’s right.

Paul: It has nothing to do with their job.

Rich: I mean, concepts like that you and I take for granted, cause we’re from an older generation, like folders.

Paul: Yeah, all new.

Rich: Files. The idea of a file and a folder and, um, I, I…

Paul: You ever use the files app on like an iPad or your iPhone?

Rich: Oh, it’s a crime.

Paul: Well, it doesn’t really work. Like, not as well as that, like, it, it, sometimes it just hangs. Like, Apple clearly was like, “Alright, we heard you. You want this to be a desktop replacement. Here, we will put our absolutely worst engineers on this nonsense.”

Rich: It’s terrible. It’s terrible. I mean, I think, I think they saw a convergence of the computer and the, I mean, the truth is the computer has given way. There’s way more phones and touchscreens and tablets out in the world than computers now. Like…

Paul: 90 percent chance, by the way, that one of the people who works on Apple Files app is listening to this right now.

Rich: And thank you for your work, whoever you are.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: We appreciate it.

Paul: It is better, it’s better than nothing, it’s better than Android.

Rich: I mean, look, I guess what we’re getting at here is even though someone has, I think you started this by talking about the funnel. I think what most people view funnel as like sales funnel. It’s a CRM thing. How do I get leads? How do I convert leads into purchases? We as software people view the funnel a little differently. The funnel doesn’t end if I got you to sign up. The funnel actually pierces through into the application experience and is still, the work is not done yet because we can have people sign up and then people poke, they click two things, and they say “Bye,” and they never come back.

Paul: Can I tell you something as a kind of reluctant capitalist that drives me bananas.

Rich: You’re not allowed to say you’re a reluctant capitalist anymore.

Paul: No, I’m an eager capitalist. The funnel is a horrible concept because it is about, who is, it’s about getting more people kind of jammed through a hole, like shove them down that tunnel, march them, march them along.

Rich: Yeah, yeah.

Paul:  And you do it with ads and you do mechanisms and like what bugs me—

Rich: Yeah, I agree

Paul: It bugs me because like, what we’re actually articulating here, look, we’re getting lots of emails about the product, and, you know, we recently said like, “Hey, if you want to become a beta tester for Aboard on iOS, we’ll give you a hat.” And we got a lot of really, we got fun responses.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Are those people our best friends? No. Are they giving us their kidneys? No. But do they kind of want a hat? Yes.

Rich: They want a hat.

Paul: That’s the nature of that—I have built wonderful friendships in my life basically on the idea that somebody might want a hat and somebody else might have a hat. Like, that’s…

Rich: I am okay with that.

Paul: So Rich, as we’re building this company, I want us to keep thinking about The Funnel. And I want to actually talk a little bit more about onboarding before we’re, before we’re done here as relationship building, and the relationships might not end in someone giving us money for the software. They might go on for a long time and they might, I want us to be thinking about how we keep delivering value and keep the relationship interesting and lively for the entire duration of the time that people want to be using this product.

Rich: Yeah, and that is that’s a great goal, right? That’s how you really build businesses and it takes enormous amounts of patience to do that. I think I think the challenge with with putting something out on the internet is that the the backdrop is so noisy and so insane that the idea of saying even saying I want to have a relationship with you, is it just it’s so it’s so far away.

Paul: You just did it. You just did it. If I, if I respond to any tweet and say, I want to have a relationship with you?

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Everyone is going to go ”You’re a stalker. You’re creepy. Get out of my way.”

Rich: Yeah, and and so and and I think, and I think we underestimate the amount of legwork it really takes to build a relationship. You just can’t do it. That’s why everyone hates getting emails from people they don’t know. That’s why people don’t want to be sold to. And relationships take time. That is just a fact of life. That’s why…

Paul: Can I make a… go, go, go, no.

Rich: No, no, go ahead.

Paul: I want to make a kind of brutal observation. Which is that a tremendous amount of conversation about marketing and marketing online really focuses on authenticity, and the brand being kind of a direct voice and sort of like, you know being it being sort of your real authentic self as a company and communicating with people. And if you think about it, like when you meet that person at the party and they start telling you about their divorce in the first five minutes.

Rich: Mmm.

Paul: It’s kind of a drag. Like, it’s kind of not great. Like, it actually comes with a tax, right?

Rich: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul:  And, I’m going to say as the person who does want to build good long-term relationships with customers and users and with communities, that too much sincerity is kind of dangerous up front. It’s like being at a party. When you’re out there advertising, it should be small talk.

Rich: That’s a great observation, right? Um, it should be, “Hey, we did a thing. We don’t want to be too pushy. We think it’ll make your life better. We think it’ll help you. Thanks.” And then you, you keep going. I think, I think this speaks, and we’re probably gonna have another podcast about a different way of engaging people and getting people to connect, right? We, what we’re seeing, and I think, I think I have a, I wanna bring this back to the, you know, the, the talk of 2023, which is AI. I think AI is going to—it’s a prediction I’m gonna make—is going to give relationships in business a second wind. I think it’s going to actually further emphasize the importance of people connecting with people to build business relationships, professional relationships, and the like. Because…

Paul: Wait, let me, let me give you what you’re saying because I think it’s actually, people could jump to the wrong conclusion. Because here’s what’s going to happen now with AI. “Hi, my name is Jim. And I know that you like shoes. So here’s 25 amazing shoe facts”—that ChatGPT generated, I didn’t tell you that part. And hit reply, and then the AI responds. That’s not what you’re talking about.

Rich: That’s definitely not what I’m talking about. I think what’s going to happen is AI will eat away at the rote tasks that humans do. Leaving humans to actually figure out, have to figure out how to get people to connect on a personal level with a brand, with a product, with anything. Because it’s all gonna get, it’s all gonna feel very, very similar, right? Like how do you get people, and how does that happen? It happens through relationships. That’s, that’s literally how it happens. It happens to, and, and, and why does that matter? It matters because it turns out, as icky as it sounds, people like to see other people. I know this is sounding old-school in a way, but it is coming back again and again as a theme and, and I think people, it still matters to people.

Paul: Well, I’ll give you, there’s a, there’s a meme going around right now. And so somebody is posting a picture of a goose that was generated by DALL-E, ChatGPT sort of like you know.

Rich: Okay, it sounds exciting.

Paul: And for every 10 likes this tweet gets, I will tell ChatGPT to make the goose sillier.

Rich: Okay, yeah, that’s right. That’s the thing now.

Paul: And so 10, 10 images in, the goose is inside of a giant galaxy with, you know, huge eyes and just, it’s a really silly goose. But what happens is, as people keep picking up on this meme, we realize, it keeps making the same image. Like, it kind of only goes in one direction.

Rich: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: And then at the same time, there’s all these people out there going like, If you’re an illustrator or a writer or copywriter, you should expect your job to be gone in two years.

Rich: A lot of threats, there’s a lot of threats with AI, right?

Paul: What I want to do is grab these bearded men by their shoulders and just say, have you ever been to a major museum? Have you ever gone to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City and looked around at the variety of things that are there? Seen the hundreds of thousands of people who come through—

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And realize that AI can’t make that stuff. It can make stuff that kind of looks like that stuff, but there is more to life than what can be generated by the bot.

Rich: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: And I feel that, like, I know that that’s kind of a stretch, but I think that that is also, we, we assume that business is just ultimately this transactional thing, whereas I actually think of it as, like, just a fundamental human, way of interacting with the world, right? Like it’s not, it’s about the transactions when you go buy into an index fund on the market, but it’s not about the transactions when you’re trying to help a not for profit, you know, organize a set of events in their community.

Rich: Yeah, I want to close with, this actually…

Paul: Well, wait, you didn’t answer my question, which is how did onboarding get better? What changed that now people actually are going through, learning, and using this tool?

Rich: Um, I think I think, well, okay. I’ll tell you specifically what we did differently. We used to drop you into this complicated place, and then they would have little stickers in different places telling you what things were, right? Which looks good to us.

Paul: Common pattern.

Rich: Common pattern, looks good to us. We backed up and said before they can even see anything, let’s talk to them directly for a minute. And they may, you know, it’s the classic next, next, next, until you get to the actual experience. Essentially, it’s sort of like a guided tour. A very light 20-second guided tour and that is…

Paul: Can you guys all slow down, just slow down and let me show you what this thing is.

Rich: Yeah, exactly. That’s right, that’s right. And that improved things a lot. Also, I feel like for the last six months…

Paul: So instead of, instead of contextual tips, it was contextual tips.

Rich: I Think both are good. I just don’t think you I think you can’t parachute someone who was just watching, like, poodle videos a minute ago Into a thing and say, “Okay, bear with me as I take you through the dashboard.” Like, nobody wants it.

Paul: Fair.

Rich: That’s just the consumer world right now. I also will say, for the last six months, it has been an exercise in taking things away and simplifying things in our product. Like we’re not, we haven’t talked about Aboard, this is about Aboard, but you’re going to find that most people don’t know or don’t care to know about all the fancy stuff you did. And you have to keep it really, really, really simple. Because they’re going to give you a minute.

Paul: [Laughter] It’s also leading to this very funny dynamic where people go, I got an email yesterday from someone I’ve known for years. And he said, look, I’d really like to use this, and he named a competitor. But my team wants the ability to save particular images or sections of text from a website.

Rich: Yeah, and it turns out the product can already do that.

Paul: Which felt really good, it was the fastest software development I’ve ever done in my life, but you know, and it’s also a little worrisome because it’s like, um, you know…

Rich: [Laughter] I think that’s going to happen a lot. I just had a call with someone and they were like, I need to, I would just like to upload a file.

Paul: Right?

Rich: And if you look at the link, I was, she, we pulled it up and it says, when you add something to the tool, “paste the link or type anything you want.” It doesn’t say anything else.

Paul: Again, it’s like but like, how do we turn this into relationship building? And I think like, that’s a case, right? Like you can either go, “Oh, man, we got to like really slamajam them with, uh, with more data and facts about this thing” and there’s a little truth in that. But I think the other aspect is more conversations, figure out the tone that works, assume that people are busy and that you are the least important thing in their day.

Rich: You have to have that humility. Otherwise you’re never going to go anywhere. It’s just to assume that people are excited about your thing is, is a disaster. It just doesn’t matter.

Paul: I’ll tell you if there’s one quality people associate with you and me, it’s humility.

Rich: I’d like to think so, Paul.

Paul: No, I don’t think that’s true at all.

Rich: All right, fine.

Paul: [Chuckles] But, but regardless, we are, we are humbly here to help our users and that will never change.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: Um, all right Richard, so you know The Funnel. I just wanted to like get us talking about the funnel.

Rich: I think we can talk about it for another hour, we won’t do that. What people don’t know Paul, is that by listening to this podcast, they are inside of a funnel.

Paul: Oh, that’s true.

Rich: Why? What is the product that sponsors this podcast, Paul?

Paul: It’s a great point. The product is called Aboard. You might have heard us mention it eight or nine hundred times in the previous 20 minutes.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: Aboard is a tool for managing all kinds of things. It saves web links, turns them into cards, it’s a note-taking tool. But mostly what it does is it takes lots of complicated data turns it into simple cards that you can organize and visualize in ways that are very intuitive. And what we’re finding is people kind of get it. So if you haven’t used it yet, jump on in, um, and, and take a look and see how it might work for you. It’s great for, like, planning a vacation. It’s good for, we use it for bug tracking. Like it’s, it’s just our opinion on how to make a better software world that allows you to talk and communicate with others and works on your phone.

Rich: Well said. Like, subscribe, turn on notifications, give us five stars. You’ve been listening to the Aboard Podcast. Have a wonderful week, you may now leave the funnel [Laughter].

Paul: Absolutely. I mean, you know, but that said, we’ll probably invite you to a party pretty soon.

Rich: Yeah, another funnel [Laughter].

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Alright, have a great week.

Paul: Bye!

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