Paul Ford: Hi, I’m Paul Ford.

Rich Ziade: And I’m Rich Ziade.

Paul: And you are listening to a podcast about how AI is changing the entire UNIVERSE…of software.

Rich: [laughing] Of software.

Paul: It is called Reqless.

[intro music]

Paul: All right, so—love our theme song. Rich, you and I are not just the co-hosts. We’re also the co-sponsors and the co-founders of the sponsor—

Rich: Co-co!

Paul: Aboard.com. What do you get at aboard.com?

Rich: We are an AI-powered software platform that can solve really specific problems because we skip so many steps because of AI. We use AI to build a lot of the software, a lot of the scaffolding, and then you’re off to the races. Still need humans, thank God. Maybe we should talk about needing humans, Paul.

Paul: That sounds disturbingly intimate for a—

Rich: Software…. [laughing] podcast.

Paul: No, I think we should. And I think what we should talk about, I want to just sort of throw this out. Like, the big question, when you are a software person is almost always—there’s two. I mean, what are the things that motivate the market in the world? Like, greed and fear, right?

Rich: Yes.

Paul: Everybody knows greed and fear. Everybody has a little greed and fear going when it comes to a new technology like AI and—

Rich: Disruptive technology.

Paul: Yeah! And let’s not, like—greed is a very loaded word, but, like, people are like, should I be in on this? Should this be part of my life?

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Or should I be running for the hills and figuring out the next thing to do?

Rich: Should I grow my own food?

Paul: Yeah. [laughing] Is it time?

Rich: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: Is it time for me to learn how to harvest tomatoes?

Rich: Yes.

Paul: And so, I thought we could today just do some rapid hits. Just bam, here we go. Get some content out the door and talk about five industries.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: And whether they should be afraid or not, or where they should be adapting.

Rich: Let’s do it.

Paul: All right, let’s go. So, number one: Musicians.

Rich: No!

Paul: So here’s what’s real. There are all these AI tools out there that will write you a song. They will write you a song, and it’ll sound like another song, and it’ll have vocals, and it’ll sound kind of like a song you might hear on the radio.

Rich: I gotta tell you, I wouldn’t—if I’m a musician, I think you have other things to worry about, like Spotify.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Like cutting a check that you can actually pay the bills with. No, I think musicians don’t have to worry in terms of AI taking their jobs. Oh, let me correct that. If you are a musician, you make a living, like, producing muzak for hotel lobbies?

Paul: Yes, I think that’s right.

Rich: I think you might want to do something else, because—

Paul: Well, you know, where, you know—

Rich: It’s generic, it’s undifferentiated. Your name’s not on it. You’re not actually building a fan base. You’re just producing stuff.

Paul: There’s a band you love. It is called Low, and it is, it is the project of a person named Alan Sparhawk.

Rich: Love Low!

Paul: Low’s really good.

Rich: One of my favorite bands in the world.

Paul: We’ve been to multiple Low shows together.

Rich: [laughing] You’re a good friend, Paul.

Paul: I’m like the sort of slightly grumpy girlfriend when we go to this. I like Low, but I, after about seven minutes, I’m like, I’ve heard this song.

Rich: Yes. Yes.

Paul: But, yeah, we’re nowhere near done.

Rich: But a beautiful band.

Paul: And the albums are amazing, actually. I truly do, I like and respect this band. Low cannot be replaced by AI.

Rich: No, no, no. And I think it gets to, and I’m going to be corny for a split second here, Low is a product of someone’s experiences and emotions and, and their perspective on the world and coping. Low is an intense band, for—

Paul: Low—

Rich: For example.

Paul: So Low is musically very well respected. It’s kind of a great…

Rich: A musician’s musician, actually.

Paul: It’s real, and it’s, like, a kind of slow, dirgy sound, etc. Even if AI could do that. Your relationship with this band goes back a while, and you seek the connection. It’s not like you send fan letters to Alan Sparhawk.

Rich: No, I’ve met him. Which was fun.

Paul: Like, way back in the day, right?

Rich: Yeah. It was like, me and twelve people in a Knitting Factory in New York City, which doesn’t exist anymore.

Paul: Right. But you love, you, when this guy does something, it actually fits into the narrative of your life. You’re like, oh, I gotta check that album out. He’s going on tour.

Rich: I’m waiting for him to put music out.

Paul: He actually, he lost his wife, who was his major collaborator, and, I mean, I saw that news, I’ve been following this band for years, partly through you; I’d heard about them otherwise.

Rich: Pretty upset about it.

Paul: It was a real moment. Like, we didn’t have a relationship with them, but it makes you contemplate you own people in your life. That is the relationship that people have with art, whether we should or shouldn’t, whether that’s the right relationship or not, the fact is, even though you don’t know him, Alan Sparhawk, and his story is an important part of your life.

Rich: Music is a medium for human connection.

Paul: That’s right.

Rich: You relate to, like, when—fans really connect when they see an artist expressing themselves and projecting the same kind of struggles that you are going through. Right? Like, you relate to that. You could be a teenager and a band could really voice, put something together that represents what you’re going through, and that is you relating to another person.

Paul: So I think there is this huge thing. I think Spotify has commoditized a lot of this, as you said, and so on. There’s like a whole world—

Rich: There’s the economy of being a musician, which sucks.

Paul: But the reality is that music is not just buying an artifact or listening to an artifact, but connecting to something bigger.

Rich: Connecting to someone else.

Paul: A scene, an individual, a story.

Rich: Yeah. Absolutely.

Paul: And I think, it could be classical, it could be pop, it could be whatever.

Rich: That’s right.

Paul: So I think that part of the world, AI might, you know, help them with some of the production aspects or so on. You know what’s going to get nuked. It’s not just muzak, it is ambient music in video games.

Rich: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: Right? Like, yeah, you know, they’ll sort of be sca—if you, because it’s so much, you’re going to, they’re just going to say, make a medieval thing for the dragon’s tavern that’s, you know…

Rich: Yeah, stuff that is really filler and is—and this is not to diminish, there’s probably people who make good living making soundtracks for video games. But yeah, it’s tougher.

Paul: I think you’re going to end up with a differentiator where like, you know, the next version of Civilization, you know, they tend to now hire these sort of big-name video-game musicians.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Like that will become the differentiator for the triple A game. It’s like, oh, you know, you like to connect? You really like this music?

Rich: Interesting.

Paul: We went ahead and got that guy.

Rich: Let me ask you, let me close this with a question. Do you think we will see a day in the future where as part of the rolling credits of a movie, instead of Hans Zimmer or John Williams, it says Compositron 4.5.

Paul: I just—

Rich: And we’re like, “Whoa, that’s awesome. They used it for this movie!”

Paul: I don’t see the path. We are, I’m on year, you know, we’re actually in year 50 or 60 of computer-generated art. Longer even.

Rich: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: There’s some brilliant—

Rich: Fractals.

Paul: Not just that, but there’s also brilliant works that were created, you know, the names are escaping me at this moment. But like, there’s a lot of stuff where people go back and recreate it and there’s a rich history. It actually fits in with pop art, and it fits in with sort of, you know, all sorts of abstract expressionism and so on.

Rich: And artists did okay.

Paul: And it’s just like, it’s not, it’s the market, you know, my whole thing with AI people is like, you know, when, when all that stuff was happening with Midjourney and all these illustrations are showing up and everybody’s like, this is the future. And it kind of kept, they love to show you the pretty girl who looked like an elf, and they all look exactly the same.

Rich: It’s the same elf.

Paul: It’s the same elf. And I’m just like, have any of you gone to a museum in the last five years? [laughter] No, but seriously, like, there is a multi-thousand-year history of how humans react to images and you just don’t see it?

Rich: No, yeah.

Paul: It just seems like—

Rich: It’s contrived.

Paul: So, like, I think, sure. Could we enter—the answer is yes, 10, 15 years from now, or sooner, the AI might compose the soundtrack, but it will be along a different set of guidelines.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: You know, it’ll be like, it’s, we’re not there yet. I wouldn’t worry yet.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: But, yeah, I mean, if I compose music for commercials or video games or whatever, I might…

Rich: Be a little nervous.

Paul: Or, like, you know, when you’re waiting in line at Disneyland.

Rich: Next industry!

Paul: Advertising.

Rich: Oof.

Paul: Well, here’s two. There’s two aspects of advertising. There’s the, I made you a cool ad that you’re gonna watch or read, and then there is, I found you 20,000 dads who like sneakers here online.

Rich: Okay, so data mining to target audiences.

Paul: Yeah. Sort of the demand side as opposed to—

Rich: I think that is much more vulnerable than the first. I think, look, I think—

Paul: It’s already happening, frankly.

Rich: Yeah. Good ad-buy firms are using technology to target better because they’re so performance driven.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: They want engagement, and they can come back and say, well, look, man, the click through was amazing. So this is pricey.

Paul: Well, what is AI good at? Is good at saying, this is kind of like this.

Rich: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’ll get better and better.

Paul: Dads who like sneakers are really likely to take a second look at a Toyota.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: That is a powerful thing to be able to bring into the room.

Rich: It is. The first part, which is kind of related to the first category that you mentioned, I think if you’re, I don’t think you’re gonna—brands can hit it out of the park when they sort of surprise you with their, their sort of personality.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: And I think if you’re using AI to, like, generate a slogan—

Paul: I think it’s right.

Rich: Like, it’s the same issue.

Paul: It’s brainstorming. People use it to come up with wireframes, and they’ll use it to come up with it—but I think, think about the Super Bowl, right? Like, nobody wants to watch Super, like, AI-generated ads.

Rich: No.

Paul: During the Super Bowl.

Rich: No. They love to see the craft and the creativity that can come from them.

Paul: It will be built in. Like, maybe the, the dancing lizard skin for the, for the energy drink will be partially generated by a tool that has some AI in it.

Rich: Yeah, yeah. That’s right.

Paul: But, like, that’s gonna be humans. All right, so advertising, if you’re on the, if you’re on the—

Rich: Buy side.

Paul: Yeah, yeah. That side with all the charts, with the arrows, you’re gonna see AI all over the place. But you know what? Frankly, they deserve it as, like, a world of just databases anyway.

Rich: [laughing] Yeah. Normal progression.

Paul: Chunking up and slicing. Ironically, the AI will be used to find humans as opposed to, like, make things. [laughter] But okay, here’s one I’m going to throw it. This one, I think, is a big deal. Teachers. So teachers have it two ways. They have students who might be using AI to make things, whether they should or not, whether they’re supposed to or not. And then there’s the fact that a large—you know, there’s a tool that I saw. It was really cute. It’s called LLM-history.network. Simplest site in the world. If you go to it, it just says the American Civil War. And there’s a button, it says show causes, and it clicks and it gives you causes of the Civil War, like tensions overdose, issue of slavery in the United States. Then you click the next show causes, and it says, the southern states, succession from the union—

Rich: Like a causation chain.

Paul: It will keep going almost infinitely.

Rich: That’s pretty neat.

Paul: And it’s pretty good. Like, it’s a really interesting way to see history. Like, keep unpacking it. So that’s a good teaching learning tool.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: Right? So here we are in a world where there’s all these new ways to see and understand the world, but it can also write your essay for you. Teachers. What do you think?

Rich: I mean, uh, you said it. I think learning tool sounds really good. Like, learning tools are good if it can enhance how you learn, if it could engage you. Learning is, by default, boring for a lot of kids.

Paul: Boy, is it patient. And this is real. You can say to it, teach me algebra, but be a funny squirrel.

Rich: Yeah, exactly. And that’s fun.

Paul: Which, frankly, Khan Academy? Khan Academy never got there.

Rich: Never got there. And frankly, now let’s take it all the way to teachers. Teachers represent something and, to me they represent early approximation of what authority and hierarchy looks like, it represents, like, on occasion, formative relationships for a young person that, like, goes beyond the subject matter that they’re learning. Teachers are, to me, it’s such an integral part of, like, the path to adulthood and in terms of human relationships and the dynamics of authority and power and all of that. No, that’s a crazy—no one’s going to look back and say, I wouldn’t be here, at their, like, what do you call the speech they give it like, the graduation?

Paul: Oh, like the valedictorian, at the commencement.

Rich: Yeah. I would not be here today without Clyde 4.3, who I met in the 6th grade, and they really shaped my fe—like, that’s not, this is, you know, I’m finding a common theme. We’re up to number three now, and the common theme is that a lot of our growth and a lot of our progress is through human connection. And I think that is, it’s funny how that keeps creeping up, talking about AI or working from home, right?

Paul: This is. I mean, you and I are middle-aged dads. We are now 25 year olds in Silicon Valley building our startup. And—

Rich: This is a fact.

Paul: This is real. Like, I mean, we’re in worlds, like, families open restaurants, and people go places and, like, it’s very—we’re not locked in a room working on one problem. We see life as kind of like a weird web of connections between lots of people and ideas.

Rich: Absolutely. I will say one of the strangest things happening right now in New York City. We are based in New York City. There’s a massive glut, like, just way too much commercial real estate because nobody’s going to work anymore.

Paul: Well, let’s be clear. Commercial real estate is one of the true sources of wealth in this trillion dollars of real estate city.

Rich: Yes. And at the same time, you cannot get a reservation at any restaurant.

Paul: No. That’s right.

Rich: Which tells me that the thirst for connection is still incredibly strong.

Paul: Everyone loves being in New York City. Nobody likes going to work.

Rich: That’s the conclusion here.

Paul: I’m going to tell you that—I want to go back to teachers. I mean, I think that is real. That’s something we’re all sort of figuring out as we go forward.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: The thing that worries me with teaching, teaching is, it’s a calling but I do see this very sort of grim future because, like, we got the New York Board of Ed and we’ve got vouchers and charters and so on and so forth, where the students, where the AI is writing the papers, and then on the teacher side, the AI is grading the papers.

Rich: [despairing noise]

Paul: You know? The for-profit universities, the like, where it’s just everyone is just kind of looking the other way as the churn happens. I think that you’re going to have to have like Board of Ed and national regulations, like, the accreditation boards are going to have to weigh in here.

Rich: Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Because that’s a larger issue.

Paul: Yeah, because I just think that, like, students will game this system internally?

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And teachers get—teachers, we always think of teachers in this sort of like, very sacred way, but after about three years, they’re like, this job kind of sucks.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Right?

Rich: Yeah, I think that’s another part of it, by the way, which is, I mean, this is nothing to do with AI. Like, teachers are notoriously underpaid. Like, it’s just historically been the case.

Paul: Their job is often horrible. I mean, New York Board of Ed is interesting because actually it is a regulatory body and teachers who stick in the system can do really well.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Like they have nice apartments and so on.

Rich: Like, they can get pensions.

Paul: Yeah. So, like, there are frameworks here, but your typical teacher in America is tired and has to buy pencils for the students because the Board of Ed won’t provide it.

Rich: Right.

Paul: And they’re going to receive 70, like, final essays around, you know, Shakespeare summaries written by ChatGPT. I wouldn’t be surprised to see somebody just go like, well, let it grade it too then.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Right. And it can write like three bullet points about how you did. Like, we could. That it’s, it’s not far to get to that place.

Rich: It’s not. And that’s a little…scary.

Paul: Yeah, I think that is. It should be scary for parents.

Rich: Yeah, right.

Paul: Like, your kid might just know how to use ChatGPT at high school graduation.

Rich: I’ve had an overarching thought, when we’re done with these. Number four.

Paul: Therapist.

Rich: Sure. All the therapist does is say, “Why would you say that?”

Paul: That is exactly what someone who’s never been in therapy thinks about therapy.

Rich: I’ve never been to therapy, which I think is obvious to anyone that listens to this podcast.

Paul: I don’t know if Lebanese men can go to therapy. I don’t know if that’s like, if that can happen.

Rich: We can. It’s called the track. [laughter] It’s called Belmont Park.

Paul: Yeah, it’s a bar.

Rich: It’s a bar.

Paul: There are a ton of online therapists. There’s that new thing Friend where, you know, it talks to—

Rich: Wait, wait. Online AI therapists?

Paul: Oh, yeah, yeah. This is—

Rich: Wow. So you pay, like, by the hour?

Paul: Yeah, not by the hour, but it’s like you get it—

Rich: Yeah, yeah.

Paul: You can have like the AI get—it’ll coach you. Because in theory it is that way.

Rich: Wow. You’ve been to therapy?

Paul: Yes.

Rich: I can’t chime in on this one.

Paul: If you are fully aware that you are interacting with a reactive bot and it is—basically what can you get out of that experience? There are two things. The bot could essentially roleplay as the worst possible version, it could give you—it can help you catastrophize and sort of understand how things are wrong. It can be affirmative. And you know, basically what you’re saying is, hey, if I treated myself and asked questions of myself in the same way that this therapy bot was.

Rich: Mmm hmm.

Paul: Then I would probably be healthier and happier. So I’m going to use this scripted robots behavior and practice it as a scripted robot myself?

Rich: Mmm hmm.

Paul: Until, and see if I get any better outcomes around my anxiety, or…

Rich: It’s like reading a book that’s supposed to help you work through things.

Paul: That’s right. Well, it’s like going to a magazine. It’s like, twelve tips for fixing a toxic relationship.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Now you expand that into kind of a conversational medium and it says, and it can ask you, it’s like, how did you do at setting that boundary? And you can say, not so good. Well what about these three things instead? That can be productive for humans who don’t have access to other humans. Let’s be real. Like therapy, you go get at least a social work master’s degree, often psychiatry—

Rich: But let me ask you this, and this is from a naive place.

Paul: Mmm hmm.

Rich: Isn’t a lot of it talking to someone?

Paul: It really depends on the kind. Right? So you can have, you can have classic talk therapy where they’re like, yeah, how did your mother treat you? And those are, those can be a—

Rich: But like the, like the articulation of what you’re going through is part of the treatment.

Paul: Yes, you have to—

Rich: So then how you could you do that with a chat bot?

Paul: Well, it actually kind of would jump you right into—so a good therapist talks to you and gets to know you a little bit of. And then they basically set up a treatment plan using a psychological or sometimes psychiatric approach. Like, sometimes it would involve—

Rich: It’s well-documented. There’s processes.

Paul: If you go get the DSM-IV, there are diagnostic criteria for general anxiety disorder or seasonal affective disorder, whatever. They basically diagnose you and then they go, like, “Okay.

Rich: Process, and—

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Then medicine could be in the mix or not.

Paul: Could be medication. They might refer you to a psychiatrist.

Rich: Sure.

Paul: Or it could be like, here are the 12 things that I read 20 papers about that will help you out.

Rich: What I’m hearing is sometimes the machine could work.

Paul: Sure. And it could be diagnostic, too. It could be like, here are the, you know, here are the 12—

Rich: Asks you a series of questions.

Paul: Here are the 12 signs of attention deficit disorder.

Rich: Intake. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: And you could answer it and it could say like, well, you should probably see a psychiatrist because you seem to have a lot of the signs of ADD.

Rich: The questionnaire.

Paul: That’s right.

Rich: At the beginning of the process.

Paul: There’s that. So it’s sort of like, it’s. It is like that. I mean, one of the earliest chat bots was called Eliza and it simulated a Rogerian psychiatrist who is, you know, would kind of—it sounds like I’m very angry. Well, it sounds like you’re very angry. Why is that?

Rich: Very interesting. I mean, I wonder, I mean, I think, look, I think someone has a great reputation in the West Village of being an awesome therapist, doesn’t have anything to worry about, because people tell other people about the great therapists they go to.

Paul: Well, there is a huge—you can’t get a therapist. It’s hard.

Rich: It’s hard to get a therapist. Maybe that’s a New York City thing.

Paul: No, in general.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: In general. So the idea that, like the bot might at least give you a sense of—what is therapy? Therapy is stepping out of yourself, observing your own behavior, and then taking steps to change that behavior. It’s hard to do. The bot is outside, it’s not a human, but it can allow you to look back at your own behavior.

Rich: Right, right.

Paul: So maybe.

Rich: Okay.

Paul: Okay, so—

Rich: Number five.

Paul: Well, this one we can’t—we can only bite off a little tiny bit of this. I think is a big—

Rich: I’m kind of hungry, Paul.

Paul: Consulting. Management consulting.

Rich: Jesus.

Paul: Now I’m going to tell you what management consulting will tell you. They’ll say, absolutely not, but I can help you use the AI to fire everybody else. [laughter] So all you’re going to need is management consultants and ChatGPT. Somehow, Deloitte, McKinsey, PricewaterhouseCoopers, all, the whole team.

Rich: Wowzers.

Paul: Yeah. So, management consulting. But what do they do? There’s different kinds. There is, I go in and I help you with the big project, like the software project or the reorg or whatever, and I use, I use my MBA and I use my policies, and I sort of, like, I make you a deck and I say, let’s do this. And then you go, let’s do it. Okay? So there is a very practical, very tactical. And then there’s the other kind, which is just like, we need organizational change, and I need to understand what’s more—almost like a kind of—

Rich: Our growth is slowing down.

Paul: Yeah. So that’s like a corporate therapy that backs into a strategy. Right? But then there’s the other, which is like, we need to fix our e-commerce system.

Rich: Yeah, I think. I think a good way to look at it. I’ve seen that, like, the pyramid of, like, strategy to tactics, to vision strategy, blah, blah, blah. Just type of strategy pyramid and you’ll get…horrible things.

Paul: Just do it, do it in Google image search—

Rich: It’s all the same.

Paul: And frankly, that’s the equivalent of an MBA.

Rich: Yeah. So here’s my take on it. I think closer to the execution side, there are going to be opportunities to accelerate a lot of what consultants do.

Paul: Explain. Okay, that’s a very consulting thing to say. Break that down. Like, what’s the execution side?

Rich: The execution side is like, I need to reduce my costs by 10%.

Paul: Okay. We are not making as much money this year as last year. So I asked you, Ms. Consultant, to come on in and help me figure out how to either make more money or trim costs.

Rich: Yeah. I think now the issue is the gathering of information to give back a plan to reduce costs by 10%. AI is not there today. Like, it’s not going to. I’m not going to upload recordings of interviews with different stakeholders at the org.

Paul: But I could summarize them, or I could send out an email, and all the responses could be summarized by AI.

Rich: Honestly, and it will give you a plan. It’ll probably give you, at least the contours of a plan.

Paul: Sure.

Rich: I think where they’re the safest—consultants—is not at the execution side or the more tactical side, but rather at the strategic side. And the reason for that is, it’s a form of therapy. Good strategic thinkers are creative thinkers, strangely, and they are creative thinkers that understand and empathize with the context in which a problem is being put in front of them.

Paul: Mmm hmm.

Rich: And it’s very dialogue driven. It’s very relationship driven. Good strategic consultants are good relationship people, and then they sort of go away and synthesize a lot of that thinking. And it is not a template. Good strategic solutions are not templates. Some are, and those aren’t good. The really great ones are the ones that really are a synthesis of what you’ve been taking in, which is, frankly, a lot of conversations. And then what you’re bringing back is something that’s actually born out of a sort of creative approach to solving something.

Paul: Yeah, but you know what? All this is real. All this is real. And I think that is—but here is the thing that I think is going to eventually bite consulting.

Rich: That they’re mostly full of shit.

Paul: No, there is that. But there is sort of like, you go to the airport and it is consulting firms plus AI. Right. For the ads.

Rich: Right now.

Paul: Right now. Right?

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: And they are going to accelerate and they’re going to. They’re going to make it more efficient and so on. I’m going to bet that as they’re going in there and selling AI on top of all the consulting services?

Rich: Uh huh?

Paul: It’s not coming in at 20% of the cost of all the previous engagements.

Rich: No.

Paul: Right? And that’s actually what we’re supposed to be doing right now. You and I are building it, we actually—

Rich: No, no, no, no, no, no.

Paul: But you and I think, our company, our company. We do, we believe that we can cut a ton off of what it costs to deploy software in an organization.

Rich: That’s right.

Paul: We really do.

Rich: That’s right.

Paul: AI and some good widgets and toolkits and all the good stuff, like, take all the knowledge of the last 20 years and add some, some AI gravy to it, and you have a Thanksgiving dinner at one fifth the cost. Right? So, so that’s, maybe we’re doing that. Maybe we’re getting that together. Good for us. But I swear to God, I doubt, I doubt very strongly that Deloitte is showing up and saying, I have great news. You’re gonna pay me—

Rich: A lot less.

Paul: So much less money—

Rich: Our revenue is going down. Great news for you.

Paul: Yeah. Booz Allen Hamilton is going to the government and going, thank God we did it for the taxpayers. AI is going to save us.

Rich: Yeah, and look, there’s a disincentive to—I mean, because the inventory they sell is time. And if you’re saying I have a tool now to reduce the amount of time I sell you, that’s a strange thing for a Deloitte or a McKinsey to do.

Paul: If I was an ambitious and entrepreneurial consultant at a high level right now, I would get the hell out of there and start an AI-based consulting firm that will cost 10% as much as the old guys, and see how far you could get.

Rich: You want the golden piece of advice for it?

Paul: Go. Go.

Rich: The golden piece of advice?

Paul: Golden.

Rich: Charge by deliverable.

Paul: Mmm.

Rich: Because it’s taking you a lot less time. I had a friend recently tell me, he goes, I have an idea. I’m going to start an AI, a consulting firm that’s powered by AI. I’m like, what’s your pitch? He’s like a third of the time at half the cost.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: I make more money and you pay less money.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Because I’m using the tool. And I was like, oh, so you’re not selling your time, you’re selling the solution. He’s like, absolutely. Why would I sell my time? It’s less time without as much inventory. So it’s a fascinating situation. I think humans have historically, always, whenever we come up with something that we, that promises efficiency, we find new complexities to pile on top of it. [laughing]

Paul: We always fill the time. You ever see, you ever watched your family pack for a trip?

Rich: Yeah. It’s like—

Paul: Right? And somehow five minutes before you need to get to the airport, no one has socks.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Yeah. Exactly.

Paul: It’s been two weeks.

Rich: Exactly, exactly. So humans tend to fill it up. I think the disruptor won’t come from within consulting. I think it’ll come from elsewhere.

Paul: I think if people can skip consulting, that will be a shock to the system.

Rich: Or cut it down as much as possible.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: I think that’s a cool thing.

Paul: You know, the high-level management consultant is safe for a while because they, they can talk about wine with a guy in Iowa.

Rich: That’s right.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: That’s a big deal.

Paul: And he doesn’t have any else to talk about wine with. So he flies them in from New York and puts it on the board—

Rich: [laughing] That’s real.

Paul: And the board, approves it. Right? So that’s, so that’s safe because I’ll tell you what, ChatGPT can’t do that.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: But some of the other stuff, it’s going to accelerate and the discounts should show up.

Rich: Yeah, that’s right.

Paul: The market is going to force them in there. So I would actually be a little nervous if I was Accenture now. I really would.

Rich: Really?

Paul: Yeah, I would.

Rich: Interesting.

Paul: Because I think that, like, you’re in a tough position. You got to sell this stuff and you got to be there or in front of it because you’re the leader. But if it doesn’t, the benefit it’s supposed to deliver is unbelievable acceleration and cost savings.

Rich: It’s tricky.

Paul: You charge for humans, so like—

Rich: You charge for humans.

Paul: So like, how—like, threading that needle is a tough, how are you going to deliver so much more value and so much more acceleration and motivate your team and so on? It’s hard.

Rich: I’s hard.

Paul: Like, it’s a two-week offsite just to figure out what’s wrong.

Rich: It’s hard. And we could have a whole podcast about where we think consulting is going to go.

Paul: We will.

Rich: And I bet we will.

Paul: It’s our podcast.

Rich: Also, former consultants. We know.

Paul: It’s. It never dies. Like, we don’t do it.

Rich: We are with you.

Paul: Yeah.

Rich: Deloitte and Accenture.

Paul: Yeah. We want to help.

Rich: We are brothers in this struggle.

Paul: Yeah. We are siblings.

Rich: Yes.

Paul: Okay, so, musicians, advertisers, teachers, therapists, consultants. I hope we were incredibly—I know so many of you listen to this podcast. I hope we were helpful.

Rich: Yeah.

Paul: So, Richard, check us out at aboard.com. Send us an email, hello@aboard.com.

Rich: Yup.

Paul: If you’re feeling that your particular industry would like to know a little more about AI.

Rich: We’d love to talk.

Paul: Yeah, come on by. We’re ready. We’re ready to go. Anywhere in the five boroughs or even beyond.

Rich: Way beyond! Boroughs are parts of New York City. For those that live not in New York City, Paul.

Paul: I would even get on a plane. It would be pretty exciting. So that’s it? Anything else we should tell the people?

Rich: No, I think we tell them to take care of themselves, and we’ll see them next week.

Paul: Yeah, it sounds exactly right.

Rich: Have a lovely week.

Paul: Bye!

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